Nicollet Mall

[TroyGBiv]

I wasn't at the meeting -- would it be correct to assume that the retail spaces originally proposed for under the stairways would have been significantly smaller than are traditionally seen? And wouldn't such a space, with its lesser total cost, have been just the prescription for the challenges that bricks-and-mortar retailers -- particularly specialty ones -- face in the online age? I'm afraid they dropped something that could have been revolutionary in terms of revitalizing the street life of our cities...

This is such a great point... "I'm afraid they dropped something that could have been revolutionary in terms of revitalizing the street life of our cities"... I fear that so often city leaders and sometimes the community groups vote against things that seem different, risky or innovative. The best thing to save the Nicollet Mall is to reinvent the retail experience. I hope that this redesign hasn't been gutted to the point of not being worth doing because it won't make a big enough transformation. The last redesign had no significant impact on the street... just a little redecoration.

[mullen]

i like the groves of trees and the firepits. the clusters of differing uses along the street's length. the IDS block needs to be that focal place. i liked the glass staircases too. hope they come up with something to connect street to skyway in lieu of that. i'm confident in these designers.

and a properly marketed ice skating feature could work. i don't think peavey was every given much love as place to skate. having inviting places for people to gather.

[maxbaby]

and a properly marketed ice skating feature could work. i don't think peavey was every given much love as place to skate. having inviting places for people to gather.

And don't make it look like a hockey rink like they do in downtown St Paul's outdoor rink. Not everybody loves hockey in this state!

[twincitizen]

Project Update: this Thursday, December 11. Hyatt Northstar Ballroom A
5:15 doors
5:45 presentation
6:45 Q&A (this is where old white people ask to get rid of buses)

http://www.nicolletmallproject.com/

This meeting has been extremely poorly publicized. I'm not sure I've seen anything in any of the media outlets. So if you were ever looking to make your mark, or have your 2 cents heard, this might be the time to attend. I really enjoyed the presentation at the last one, but then again it was the big reveal of the staircases, which may not be happening anymore.

[mullen]

the "old white people" are right. perhaps beacuse they've traveled and experienced how cities much larger than ours get by just fine with true pedestrian streets. vienna, paris, new york? nah they just don't get it.

[MNdible]

It's been suggested that Nicollet Mall should have a transit tunnel underneath it. Until the logistics and finances of that get sorted out, I'm not sure it's terribly useful to compare downtown Minneapolis with cities that have massive subway systems providing critical transit service to their cores.

[mattaudio]

I'm sure it would be a lot harder to consider building a Nicollet Mall transit tunnel in 10, 20, or 30 years right after we sink $5 million *per block* into redoing it.

[twincitizen]

Well we aren't considering a tunnel now (though we should be), so I'm not sure what your point is. Don't rebuild Nicollet Mall at all? Or do it for less money (so it's easier to disrupt later)? I'm afraid that ship has sailed. If we ever do get that elusive N-S downtown tunnel, I think we can all rest assured that it probably won't run directly under Nicollet Avenue/Mall/Mile.

The real shame here is that Marq2 was built exclusively for express buses, and built under capacity at that. At some point we'll need to admit that Marq2 was the real planning failure here, and that it should have been a bus tunnel through downtown, unencumbered by traffic lights and cars streaming out of parking garages. With a proper 2-way transit spine that could handle peak-hour express buses, as well as local Nicollet Mall buses (to say nothing of LRT or streetcar plans), you could have then made a case for a vehicle-free Nicollet Mall. But we don't live in that world.

Hindsight being 20/20, Access Minneapolis had an incredible opportunity to weld together the planning processes for Marq2, SWLRT, and Nicollet Mall transit needs, but it was not an ambitious plan.


All that said, being the realist that I am, I do still think that at least one busy bus route should be shifted away from Nicollet Mall, though certainly not all of them. It's going to be decades before the streetcar could replace even the shortest runs of the 10 or 18. My opinion, which is definitely not shared by Metro Transit, is that we should terminate the 18 at Lake Street & 35W, forcing a transfer to streetcar or Orange Line. Maybe we can get there if the streetcar can be run on 5 minute headways.

[mattaudio]

How is it a planning failure? It seems like one of the better things we got out of the Fed's UPA. Much better than the park & rides and capacity expansions built with UPA dollars.

But I do agree we need to start planning for a north-south transit tunnel. Yet by the time we are ready to build it, Nicollet Mall will probably be ready for its next generational redo.

[twincitizen]

OK, maybe Marq2 isn't a complete failure, but it's for sure a short-term/bargain solution for transit. Just 3 years after completion, buses were already running slower than projected, and Metro Transit claims there is no additional capacity. Our planned LRT extentions SW & NW might take a few express buses off the road during peak, but not many. A few others can be shifted to an E-W transit spine, could should help some. I still think Marq2 is a short-term fix, not destined to be helpful beyond 2030. A stated goal for downtown is to increase transit mode share from 40% to 60%. How the heck are we going to do that if Marq2 is already unperforming and undercapacity?

[mattaudio]

There are so few contiguous north-south streets in the core. Nicollet, Marquette, and 2nd are really the best. Maybe 3rd Ave and Hennepin, but even those are not ideal.

If we have grade separation or new transit spines, L routes or even a U would help get the transit closer to more jobs and portions of the core. Sort of the concept behind L4 and L5 streetcar services on this map: http://goo.gl/maps/nJa3i

[Silophant]

Went to the project update meeting tonight, though I zoned out through portions of it. Long day.

Anyway, highlights, in no particular order:

The staircase is no more. Instead, the section from 6th to 8th is now called "Nicollet Center". The curve will be straightened out for this portion, and each side of the street will get a unique treatment. The west side will become the "Art Walk", with a row of trees along the street (pruned high to allow visibility), suspended lighting, and a long, narrow programming space. Various renderings showed it as a curling sheet, a bocce pitch, a lit bridge walkway thing, and a seating area. I suspect it will be a seating area most of the time. The east side will become the "Light Walk", with a long awning of tilted mirrors suspended over the sidewalk. These will reflect the sky or the sidewalk, depending on what direction you're walking. Hopefully the Strib or somewhere posts some images soon, since it's hard to describe without images. In addition, the support poles for the awning will provide power outlets for the farmer's market, among other things, which is cool. The mirrors seem kinda gimmicky to me, though.

The plans for the remainder of the mall seem mostly unchanged from the last presentation last summer. Lots and lots of trees.

There will be no specific skyway connection built as a part of this project. In what was apparently a surprise to everyone involved, none of the private skyway owners wanted to shoulder the responsibility of suddenly being the prime entry/exit point to the system. He did say that there's plenty of existing entrances all over the mall, and that what's really needed is better wayfinding, which I mostly agree with. I mean, if Des Moines can put together a consistent skyway entrance marking system, surely we can too. (Aside: Does anyone know if Des Moines' system is privately owned or publicly owned? That might be the difference.)

The design is being made to be "streetcar-ready", which apparently means that they'll try to organize utilities such that they aren't too in the way when/if a streetcar comes through, but no tracks will be laid as a part of the project. This is probably a good idea even if the streetcar doesn't happen, so good on them.

Bus stops are moving to midblocks, and the shelters will be "airy and light" as opposed to the heavy hexagons we have today. Buses will be rerouted during construction, of course, but will absolutely be coming back when it's done. I'm personally hoping that Metro Transit finds such a good solution for that detour that a couple of the local routes stay off the Mall, but that's probably a pipedream.

Taxis will always be on the mall for the portion in front of the hotels, but they are apparently considering disallowing them further north, though he didn't say whether that was north of 12th or 10th or what.

The new café patio arrangement that a few of the Nicollet Mall restaurants tried this summer, with the seating right next to the curb and a clear pedestrian path beside the storefront, was a very successful pilot, and will apparently become the rule along Nicollet. Cool.

Peavey Plaza is not a part of this project, and the speaker wasn't terribly optimistic that anything would be done with it before this project is complete (2016). Sad.

There were suggestions, but no specifics, of food truck spaces being included in the redesign.

That's pretty much what I remember. I thought I saw a couple other UrbanMSPers there, so hopefully other people can provide their thoughts.

[grant1simons2]

I asked the Peavey Plaza question! I don't believe though that it's as far out as he made it seem by laughing it the question

[nBode]

Strib article regarding the redesign:

http://www.startribune.com/local/minnea ... 74801.html

No images of "Nicollet Center"

[Silophant]

I asked the Peavey Plaza question! I don't believe though that it's as far out as he made it seem by laughing it the question

I hope not. Maybe being the site of the reasonably successful Holiday Market will mean we see some movement on it this summer.

[acs]

Mirrors, trees and other artsy stuff is nice, but I still don't see anything in these revised plans linking the skyways to the streetscape whether by staircase or wayfinding. Great, you've added even more trees and seating. It's not like there was a particular lack of this in the current incarnation though, it's just taken up between the hours of 4:00 pm to 6:30 by panhandlers and homeless people. The only really revolutionary and worthy improvement to the mall I've seen come out of this process was the stairs concept, but that's dead.

Is there somewhere we can submit comments to the designers electronically if we're too busy to make it to these meetings?

[seanrichardryan]

http://m.startribune.com/local/minneapo ... ?section=/

[PhilmerPhil]

A couple other notes:

-The bus shelters don't look like they're gonna do a good job keeping transit users warm, which seems like a big deal to me. I brought this up in the Q&A section, and the crowd generally seemed to be nodding in agreement. Unfortunately it seems that the business interests prefer "open and airy."
-The flare-outs at intersections to allow for easier bike passing have been eliminated. I'm fine with this as long as bikes are still welcomed on the Mall. The Minneapolis Bicycle Coalition is pushing for more utilitarian and speedy protected bike lanes on Marquette and 2nd, for which you can sign a petition here: http://connect.bikewaysforeveryone.org/ ... er_id=1462 (For the most part, I'll probably continue to ride on Nicollet Mall, since I generally prefer routes with scenery and people watching over quick and efficient ones.)
-I'm glad the staircases are gone. It just seemed too cramped and the new setup seems to give the space more flexibility for engaging uses.
-The current public art pieces are being studied and decisions on their fate are TBD.
-Not only will there be movable furniture, but if I heard it right, there will be moveable fireplaces as well! I have a feeling they're not gonna make it to the finish, but it would be pretty awesome if they did.
-Speaking of fire, the fire pit by 1200 on the Mall has been nixed.

Overall, the project will be a well designed attraction, and I'm looking forward to seeing it come together, but it's hard to get too excited when downtown is riddled with ugly streetscapes, and the current state of the Mall is already one of downtown's greatest public spaces.

Here's a Journal article with new renderings: http://www.journalmpls.com/news-feed/li ... ollet-mall

[mullen]

the staircases were a central component of this redesign. to have them removed is disappointing. i wish we would have uniform wayfinding, logos and hours for our skyway system.

all in all it will be a great improvement. i'm not going to quarrel with these features. of all of downtown's strengths, this addresses it's greatest need. walkable, inviting pedestrian spaces. and i never wanted to buses to remain on the mall but we seem to be welded to the vision of this street as a transit mall. wellington new zealand has a nice busway, pedestrian space.

[PhilmerPhil]

More renderings: http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/g ... -they.html