Twin Cities Future Transit Map

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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby mplsjaromir » January 1st, 2013, 8:16 am

robotlollipop wrote:Why is there no express routes for the LRT? The stop and go is ridiculous!


Its only double tracked.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby mulad » January 1st, 2013, 9:52 am

You can run express service on double-tracked lines with crossovers, and probably even single-tracked lines if you have enough sidings, but the tradeoff is that you reduce the capacity of the system, make the schedule more erratic, increase the chance that small disruptions can cascade into major ones, and most likely slow down the "local" trains even more -- probably to the point of making the overall average travel time worse than it originally was. That result has been seen out in California with Caltrain's "Baby Bullet" service.

As mplsjaromir implied, the best way to do express service is with extra tracks. NYC Subway lines with express service are quadruple-tracked -- locals run on one set of tracks, while express trains use the other.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Le Sueur » January 1st, 2013, 2:44 pm

robotlollipop wrote:Why is there no express routes for the LRT? The stop and go is ridiculous!

For efficient track design reference: Classic DOS Game.
I am not liable for any addiction that follows.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » January 2nd, 2013, 6:15 pm

Here's the latest map.

DOWNLOAD FULL MAP


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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby twincitizen » January 2nd, 2013, 10:34 pm

BRAVO! It's looking really, really good.
A few fixes:

Orange Line: Move 98th to the north side of the river, it's in Bloomington.

Red Line: "Cliff" looks like it might be written in a different font than everything else

Green Line: Disagree if you want (anyone), but the White Bear Lake line should not be interlined with Green. Wasn't it Yellow before?
1. The ridership demand and frequency will never be a match.
2. That's one long line...it's just not realistic, or even necessarily desirable. The trackage interlining possibilities aren't great either. You can't run "in-service" trains through the Operations & Maintenance facility!
3. Also, this line is highly speculative in the first place. I feel like several of the other bus routes would become LRT/BRT before a St. Paul-WBL route. But we've come this far...let's just go back to Yellow.

Any chance you'd add the other Minneapolis lakes? Lake of the Isles and Cedar Lake? I just love the way the lakes look on the map.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby robotlollipop » January 3rd, 2013, 4:43 am

mulad wrote:You can run express service on double-tracked lines with crossovers, and probably even single-tracked lines if you have enough sidings, but the tradeoff is that you reduce the capacity of the system, make the schedule more erratic, increase the chance that small disruptions can cascade into major ones, and most likely slow down the "local" trains even more -- probably to the point of making the overall average travel time worse than it originally was. That result has been seen out in California with Caltrain's "Baby Bullet" service.

As mplsjaromir implied, the best way to do express service is with extra tracks. NYC Subway lines with express service are quadruple-tracked -- locals run on one set of tracks, while express trains use the other.


Gotchya! NYC is amazing :/
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby fehler » January 3rd, 2013, 9:23 am

I would color or highlight the blueline track between the two airport terminals, since they are highlighted on other maps.

It seem odd not to include some mention of the Northstar Commuter Rail.

Also odd/unhelpful that while the St. Paul airport in included, the Amtrack Terminal is not.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby mattaudio » January 3rd, 2013, 9:48 am

^But unfortunately they did not do FSSF and island platforms back when they built the NY Subway. :)
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » January 3rd, 2013, 2:21 pm

twincitizen wrote:Green Line: Disagree if you want (anyone), but the White Bear Lake line should not be interlined with Green. Wasn't it Yellow before?
1. ...
2. ...
3. ...


Makes sense. A show of hands, anyone else would rather have it shown as a separate from the Green line service?
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby bptenor » January 3rd, 2013, 2:44 pm

I think it make more sense for the White Bear/Rush Line LRT to be a different color, especially since it is clearly going to be north/south instead of east/west. Depending on what happens in the Robert St Corridor, these two could potentially be interlined as the same color.
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Bug Fixes and Error Reporting

Postby Visualizer » January 3rd, 2013, 4:16 pm

Just a note that I am tracking your many wonderful suggestions and/or corrections by manually recording them in this Google Doc.

Problem: It's a laborious process and occasionally some of the things you suggest may fall through the cracks/get overlooked.
Solution: You can help me by filing a ticket here. This will automatically add your ticket to my to-do list. I expect this should speed things up [s]a bit[/s] a lot
Tak!
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » January 3rd, 2013, 7:34 pm

Here's the latest map. I've addressed some of the issues above and added a new rapid route along Grand Ave. in St. Paul (63 bus).

DOWNLOAD FULL MAP


https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7332382/Map%20Drafts/Feedback_10_0103_2.jpg


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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » January 4th, 2013, 12:38 am

twincitizen wrote:If you insist on adding minor bus lines (63, 65, etc) not part of Metro's planned rapid network, check the recommended changes when Central Corridor begins service: http://metrotransit.org/recommended-plan.aspx Namely the 63 will continue up to Raymond Station.


3 and 6 (the France Av. leg) as well ...

I think you have a point here. The "minor" routes are not part of existing Rapid Bus plans and should not be shown as such. Still, if we were to include the rapid bus alone and disregard other semi-frequent routes, I think it would unfortunately serve to highlight the paucity of frequent transit services in this city. I don't think that's a plus for a map that is supposed to portray an optimistic picture of the future. It actually reminds me of Adelaide's rather constrained hub-and-spoke style network:

Image

I know ours isn't totally a hub-and-spoke network, despite what current choice for Rapid corridors may otherwise suggest. Including somewhat less frequent routes on the map would reinforce the mesh nature of the future network and that you won't be forced to go dt Minneapolis or dt St Paul to make your connection.

So we have come to a consensus here. Either leave them off completely or include them while visually differentiating between various services.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby twincitizen » January 4th, 2013, 12:58 am

I don't know...these bus routes are important. Heck, the ones I've used the most (3 & 4) aren't slated for Rapid, but they actually are quite heavily used and are damn important to a lot of people.

However, you have to make the cutoff somewhere and I think that cutoff should be Metro Transit's rapid bus plan (including soon-to-be-added Penn Ave N and Emerson/Fremont). We are talking about a (mostly) realistic map for 2030, are we not? If you start adding local routes and branches, you're going to get a map that isn't as aesthetically pleasing or useful. We've already decided to upgrade current Route 675 to the full-fledged purple line and created an entirely imaginary service to White Bear Lake that belongs in the pantasy department, rather than a somewhat realistic 2030 service map.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby twincitizen » January 4th, 2013, 1:07 am

That said, my recommendations are:
Keep the 3 and the 6.
Strike the 14 (southern half) and 65 for sure.

Regarding the 6, change your line to the Xerxes/York branch. Create a new direct line from Southdale along France Avenue to West Lake Station on the Green Line. A "France Avenue Shuttle" is very likely to replace France Ave branches of the 6.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Visualizer » January 4th, 2013, 10:44 am

So you're hoping the 3 and France Ave, not 65 and 14, will support a full BRT service in the future then?
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby mattaudio » January 4th, 2013, 10:57 am

Just think if France was connected between Excelsior and Mtka Blvd, the new France shuttle could connect west on Mtka Blvd then north to the West End. Maybe this could simplify the 9 routing, eliminating some of the messy branches.
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby twincitizen » January 4th, 2013, 12:56 pm

[offtopic]Won't happen though, directly from the mouths of St. Louis Park planners. Other connections will be made in the area, but not that one. You'd need a new bridge over the LRT tracks & trail for one thing. Park Glen Road and 32nd Street will be connected, forming a T intersection with France Ave there. That's a huge improvement over current conditions, without the added cost of a new bridge to build & maintain. That France Ave bus route should definitely continue north as you suggest, it just won't be a pretty little straight line[/offtopic]
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby mister.shoes » January 4th, 2013, 1:29 pm

When a street is a city boundary as France is, how is it determined which city maintains and alters the street? Or is the actual boundary on one side of the street or the other?
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Re: Twin Cities Future Transit Map

Postby Viktor Vaughn » January 4th, 2013, 11:04 pm

To me, the map looks a little empty without the 4. I know you don't want it to get too busy, but your map has a lot of whitespace between Columbia Heights and Rosedale. It's not a brt corridor, but I would hope that in a decade it could meet today's standards for the high frequency network. One option would be to show the 2nd tier routes that are critical to the system as part of a high frequency network. As high-frequency routes are rebuilt as rapid bus, other corridors could graduate to the high frequency system.

My only other suggestion would be to make the rivers and lakes more natural. It looks cool how the routes parallel the river in certain areas, but to many the unique shapes that rivers cut are seared into our sense of place. Think of a map of Hennepin County. You'd recognize the shape anywhere due to the paths of the Mississippi and Minnesota rivers. Also, I identify lakes by their shape. Using the exact lake shape will help orientate people.

But I want to emphasis, I really love your map. I've spent a lot of time looking at it, and it has helped me to visualize the possibility of the our transit system.
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