Car Sharing / Rental (Car2Go, HourCar, etc.)

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
talindsay
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby talindsay » May 3rd, 2013, 2:36 pm

Also, the Smarts are terrible cars to drive - I love driving, I love small cars and I *REALLY* wanted to love the Smart, but its horrible single-clutch automated transmission is disastrous - people who want an automatic aren't going to be happy with the way it jerks you around, and people who want a manual are going to wish it had a clutch. I found it unbearable; I drive a Fiat 500 (manual, of course), which gets better mileage AND has a functional backseat plus a decent amount of space in the hatch.

But I would agree that for car share programs, something like the Honda Fit or Mazda 3 would be about the best choices - small enough to be easy in the city but still capable of hauling five people and lots of stuff if needed; cheap, basic engines that get good gas mileage and won't be expensive to maintain; and low-key enough not to be a risk for theft or vandalism.

When we only had one car (before I got the Fiat) I was a member of ZipCar here at the U, and it was really great but I rarely used it. When I did I tended to grab either the Mazda 3 or the Ford Focus hatch that they had - both comfortable with plenty of space but still small enough for the city. Once I got a Prius, and while it was okay, I made a point of getting other cars before it - it struck me as less utilitarian than the Mazda, Ford, or even the ugly Honda Element they used to have.

I personally think the city will be pretty unhappy with an entire system of only Smarts deployed.

UptownSport
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby UptownSport » May 4th, 2013, 1:35 am

The smart has an asian engine in US, Europe there's an entire range of engines that actually are efficient.
Euro cities encourage smarts I understood- They can park two to a spot for free or something.
I like the Fiesta, for the fact it doesn't have a gas-guzzling automatic, but a 'Dual-Clutch' manual.
I'm assuming all auto's will need to go to this to meet new efficiency standards, and I applaud Ford for being out front on this.

One way to increase road capacity is to use shorter cars- I understand the city is projecting population increases.
We own canoes and kayaks! They're easy to store, easy to transport on a small car, and they're quiet. Nothing like getting out of the city for fresh air and peace-&-quiet only to rip around in a noisy, exhaust-spewing boat.
I worry that having an inexpensive, fuel-efficient boat will clog the waterways ...
You've already got two!! :D

MNdible
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby MNdible » May 4th, 2013, 4:30 pm

I worry that having an inexpensive, fuel-efficient boat will clog the waterways ...
Well played.

UptownSport
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby UptownSport » May 4th, 2013, 11:12 pm

I'm trying not to be so uptight ...

I do wonder why it's so bad to have efficient autos-
I'd think a well executed micro car- I'd willingly drive one- would both radically increase capacity AND be more efficient than what we have now-


I really like the Peel p50- Totally fascinated with it as a concept-
Image

MNdible
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby MNdible » May 4th, 2013, 11:20 pm

Perhaps something like this?

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 5th, 2013, 9:05 am

I'm trying not to be so uptight ...

I do wonder why it's so bad to have efficient autos-
I'd think a well executed micro car- I'd willingly drive one- would both radically increase capacity AND be more efficient than what we have now-

I really like the Peel p50- Totally fascinated with it as a concept-
Let's assume current of cars allow 100 full-size cars to be on a given street between driving and parking (size, cost of ownership including up-front costs, fuel efficiency, and parking cost due to physical space requirement). Now let's say you introduce a bunch of cars like the Smart Car, Prius C, etc. Smaller than many sedans and certainly SUVs, by at least a factor of 2, maybe more. More fuel efficient - although as we've noted even the best cars only get ~40-50 mpg, Smart Car is in the 30s, and many mid to full-size sedans get high 20s to mid 30s today - let's say by a factor of 1.75 (and over time this number may change). They cost less up front because they're smaller and cities/parking garages start incentivizing or charging appropriate market rates because you can fit 2x as many in a given space. With all this said, for every sedan/SUV you take off the road, you replace it with 2+ small vehicles that have less than double (on average) mileage.

You've basically kept total emissions the same (at VERY best) by having more autos with better gas mileage on the road. You've taken away people who would otherwise have chosen to walk, bike, or bus somewhere because it has become convenient (at least perceived) to drive (which can have ramifications on land-use, level of transit service, etc, that all feed the cycle of increasing car-dependency). We've shown time and again that increasing the efficiency of a thing does not lead to less use of it in aggregate, but more than before because it is now available to more people. From an economics perspective, this is obviously the goal. From an environmental one it is counter-intuitive.

From a car-sharing perspective, I think the small to mid-size cars make sense. They're not meant as a daily user - they wou;d be economically inefficient to use it that often vs owning. They should be viewed as mobility enhancers for the things transit can't get you to (or at the times you need), or things you can't do with transit (like getting that big shelf from Ikea, assuming you didn't just order it online).

mulad
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby mulad » May 5th, 2013, 10:07 am

As with public transportation, much of the fuel savings people should see with car sharing come from the trips not taken, rather than the trips that are taken. The creation of a good car-sharing network should cause some people to get rid of their cars and walk/bike/bus more often, but it will also bring in some people who don't have cars or have fewer cars than what is typical.

I think the better arguments for car sharing circulate around cost savings for customers, reducing/eliminating the hassle for maintenance, and reducing the need for parking.

I definitely get a bit uneasy about car sharing, though. Personally, I can walk/bike/bus for most things I need. For me, my car mostly just fills the gap late on Sunday when I finally get motivated to get groceries, or when I go on a weekend trip to visit my parents or other family members. Car sharing is fine for the grocery trip, since I'd only be away from home for an hour or so, but a traditional car rental would be a better fit for that weekend getaway.

I'm atypical, though -- no girlfriend or kids to worry about, etc.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 5th, 2013, 10:14 am

I think that's why Avis bought Zipcar - perhaps pair the short-term need business model with their longer-term rental offering to provide convenient access to rental cars in a variety of locations (not just near/in airports) for people to use all the time.

UptownSport
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby UptownSport » May 5th, 2013, 8:37 pm

Perhaps there might be more total consumption in a world of micro cars- Perhaps.
Undisputed is that more people have the opportunity to drive in some areas- As discussed, you really aren't going to make the Lowry tunnel wider.
If not, the roads would certainly be less congested.

Higher consumption, if true, is then the price for more people having more opportunities.
I feel very uneasy about using economics to prevent the poorest people from having this opportunity-
There are the type of people who will drive an E Class and have unfettered opportunity to go where they wish, then those stuck only having access to walking distance from the 16

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 6th, 2013, 8:31 pm

Perhaps there might be more total consumption in a world of micro cars- Perhaps.
Undisputed is that more people have the opportunity to drive in some areas- As discussed, you really aren't going to make the Lowry tunnel wider.
If not, the roads would certainly be less congested.

Higher consumption, if true, is then the price for more people having more opportunities.
I feel very uneasy about using economics to prevent the poorest people from having this opportunity-
There are the type of people who will drive an E Class and have unfettered opportunity to go where they wish, then those stuck only having access to walking distance from the 16
There is no perhaps about it. Induced demand is not only a phenomena related to building more freeway capacity. Building more freeway lanes with fixed car size is no different than building smaller cars with fixed road size. Or building more efficient air conditioners and expecting the total consumption of electricity to remain the same. Again, as I said, from an economy perspective, this sure is a great thing - more people get cars to drive around and the market builds stuff and pays people. From an environmental perspective (my point to begin with) this is a bad thing.

I would very much challenge the notion of more people having access to opportunities simply because cars exist. There are many ways to achieve this. I would bet that a person in NYC (or London or anywhere with a half-decent transit network) can access more restaurants, bars, shops, and jobs in a 30 minute walk/transit commute than we can here in MSP (and no, the 50th Applebees is not comparable to 50 different restaurants one would encounter in NYC). This is just an example.

I would also challenge your notion that anyone is limiting poor people to the 16 (or any transit line we have here) as if that's the gold standard we've set for ourselves. I'm also not advocating for no car-sharing. As it's been stated, a car-share in a city with very good land-use, efficient transit, etc is an enabler for people to get to the 1-5% of possible destinations or uses they otherwise don't have in their walk/transit-heavy lifestyle (where they can get to their job, grocery, kid's school, park, etc without a car). In Minneapolis, a very heavily auto-oriented city, car-sharing makes little sense as very few people can access a large % of their needs without a car, and a large % of our region's jobs are not in our core cities.

UptownSport
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby UptownSport » May 6th, 2013, 10:11 pm

I don't disagree, at all, that there are areas where you really don't need a car.
(I rented one in Europe for a day and it was the dumbest thing I did and it was some kind of mini Mercedes that had a dent in it, and all the Germans pointed to the dent as if I'd ran over their National mascot)

Unfortunately, it ain't here.

RailBaronYarr
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby RailBaronYarr » May 7th, 2013, 7:13 am

I also agree that it aint here. Unfortunately, I don't believe that the solution to the problem is doubling down on personal vehicles that"fix" the problem by shrinking their size while slightly increasing fuel mileage, as we'll hit our saturation point in a short amount of time. My goal would be to put land-use laws and public transportation (street design included) to support getting to that goal of 80+% of people being able to access 80+% of their needs by foot, bike, or transit.

My overall point was that car-sharing is a great idea for areas where this is already the case, and that I'm skeptical of how successful it will be in the Twin Cities. And also that having more but also more efficient vehicles on the road doesn't necessarily mean good for the environment.

UptownSport
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby UptownSport » May 7th, 2013, 6:36 pm

I Like your goals- I'm upset that MORE isn't being done to even come close-
Local, regional, undergrounds, etc.

Twice I HAD (Stupid speed sensor was blowing fuses?!) to get from Lowry Hill to Lexington and 694-
I got there but it took forever
I can't imagine someone doing this for work; the cost plus it takes away all your time to look for another job or have a life.
My mother commuted from Roseville (Years ago) to DT Minneapolis- That took her forever, too.

I really enjoying being able to hop a bus for free and go wherever I want- However, I need my car, too- and it makes sense that as long as I'm driving I have a small, compact vehicle.

I'm still mesmerized by the micro car, scooters / motorcycles (you can ride two abreast) are another ultra compact commuter

nate
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby nate » May 8th, 2013, 6:58 am

http://www.economist.com/blogs/babbage/ ... g-services

This seems like a good advancement on the car-sharing idea. With the reliability and flexibility of a system like this, I could imagine individuals ditching a private car entirely, or families going from two to one car. That would be progress.

UptownSport
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby UptownSport » May 8th, 2013, 2:15 pm

Sure! Why have a car you have to park that the majority of time is just sitting rusting?

Cars are really cheap (relatively) to own in US- You can drive anything you please, even if only one brake works and no matter how rusty, fuel is cheap :Installs virtual helmet:, tabs are like $40 year, etc.
The only real cost is maintaining (or purchasing) the car, and if you have an old you you only drive once and a while ...

I take it from the word 'Kerbside' this is in the UK?

PhilmerPhil
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby PhilmerPhil » August 27th, 2013, 11:46 am

Car2go's Minneapolis site is up and you can register for an account: https://www.car2go.com/en/minneapolis/



Very excited about this.

exiled_antipodean
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby exiled_antipodean » August 28th, 2013, 8:29 am

At the risk of over-generalizing my own situation, I think car sharing is still great for a city like Minneapolis because it can potentially reduce the number of 2+ car families.

Given current land use patterns etc few people are going to be able to go completely car-less. But especially in the core cities and maybe some inner ring suburbs it is actually completely realistic to think that many families with two working adults don't need two cars. It might be hard to live in a place where both people can walk/bike/bus/train to work, but if one person can do that, the need for the second car all the time becomes much less. For many people the second car is really only needed because of dispersed workplaces.

But there are plenty of times when for whatever reason two adults in a relationship want to do something different on a Saturday morning (or weekday evening) and the bus service isn't great, or it's winter and they don't want to bike.

That's when the car share is great.

Once you only have one car in a household you reduce your discretionary driving a lot, and you tend to make trips more efficiently hitting multiple destinations close to each other.

Making a transition to more one car households should make those people more aware and supportive of the need for better land use and transit options.

Baby steps ...

twincitizen
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby twincitizen » August 28th, 2013, 8:40 am

Another huge benefit of reducing many two-car households to one-car in Minneapolis would be getting some of these ****ing parked cars off the streets.

ECtransplant
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Re: Car Sharing

Postby ECtransplant » September 1st, 2013, 2:44 am


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Re: Car Sharing

Postby FISHMANPET » September 1st, 2013, 9:02 am

You can get free membership plus 30 free minutes with code vikings. I signed up just in case.

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