Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

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Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » June 7th, 2012, 11:20 pm

Construction is well underway on Cedar from 138 St to 153 St. It's basically finished from 153 St to 179 St. Everything on the transit side is taking a while, Met Council recently was figuring out who is supposed to do what. Expansion of the Apple Valley Transit Station should be complete in July.

A presentation to the Transportation Committee for next Monday claims a "spring 2013" opening.
http://councilmeetings.metc.state.mn.us/Transportation/2012/0611/Red%20Line_Cedar%20Ave%20Update%20presntn.pdf
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby NickP » June 8th, 2012, 10:20 am

Tcmetro, thanks for posting that. I have a question about the weekday transit way service slide. Is that slide of what they plan to do or what is currently in effect? I guess I am most confused about why would they have higher frequency on the existing express service than on the new Metro Red line? It just seems counterintuitive to me. Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks folks.
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby Tcmetro » June 8th, 2012, 10:39 am

The main market for the park and ride service is downtown commuters. They would leave in droves if they were forced to take a 25 min bus ride, 5 min transfer, and 35 min rail ride to the city. It looks to me that existing express bus service levels will be preserved. Current service on the 442 (basically the same as the Red Line) is every half-hour during peak times and will be doubled to every 15 minutes. At opening date, I would imagine that the express buses will continue to be crowded, and Red Line buses will be half-full or so.

The Red Line will essentially be a replacement for the 442 bus. The only change is the elimination of the Palomino Hills stop, which is a bad move in my mind. We shall see if ridership improves along the line with 15 minute frequencies. I don't use the 442 often, but from my observations the peak ridership is decent, while off-peak ridership hovers around 10 people per trip. The Apple Valley-Burnsville segment is usually dead, rarely have I seen more than 4 people on the bus to Burnsville. The success of the Red Line is going to be improved feeder service, because so few people live within walking distance of any of the stations. The only stop with a trailer park and a number of apartment complexes, Palomino Hills, is being eliminated.

A number of changes to the local network are neccesary to ensure the success of Red Line service. I would cut 437, 440 and 445 back to Cedar Grove, combine the 442-Burnsville, 465A, and 426 routes into one new route, and consolidation of 438 and 440 into one route and improve service. Perhaps an entirely new network of routes should be drawn up with no concern of existing route segments.
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby NickP » June 8th, 2012, 1:05 pm

Thanks man. So just to me clear, this line will be similar to the lines Metro Transit is considering for the major bus routes in the cities. It's an ungraded local route as opposed to a run of the mill local route?
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby Lancestar2 » June 8th, 2012, 1:30 pm

Palomino Hills won't be on the Red line? according to wiki it is and all the info I have heard before... do you mean it won't be added at first when it opens and may be added later?? also then what service will that existing park and ride serve? I used to live there and took the 442 to MOA and then the train downtown for a few weeks when I was moving downtown. It was always pretty empty but It was a great link! It would be awful it it wasn't included into the services of the line! WOW must be some budget cuts that area could really benefit with being linked into the line (going south for shopping and going north for employment ect ect.) Its a large community that could start moving towards a car free lifestyle! with a bike and some good shoes you could live in apple valley work downtown and enjoy a car free lifestyle for the most part or even completely!

That's why I find this project so exciting! because had I not moved I could possible be able to move towards a mostly car free lifestyle with out even having to live downtown! :mrgreen:
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby Tcmetro » June 8th, 2012, 1:42 pm

They wrote a new service implementation plan last year eliminating the Palomino stop.

I wouldn't trust wikipedia on these matters. I quit editing it several years back because some guy kept making up fake bus routes and I was like WTF, I don't have time for this crap.
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby Tcmetro » June 8th, 2012, 2:24 pm

NickP wrote:Thanks man. So just to me clear, this line will be similar to the lines Metro Transit is considering for the major bus routes in the cities. It's an ungraded local route as opposed to a run of the mill local route?


It's slightly different. The Red Line will have fewer stops than the Arterial BRT being proposed by Metro Transit. Also, this line is classified as "Highway BRT", therefore allowing CTIB regional sales tax to fund construction and operations. They are similar in that they will have TSP, and pre-boarding fare payment. This line will also have bus lanes along the arterial portion and bus shoulders on the highway portion, whereas the Arterial BRT lines will be mixed traffic. Arterial BRT lines will not recieve color designations and will not be a part of the "METRO" system.
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby Lancestar2 » June 11th, 2012, 2:56 am

Tcmetro wrote:
NickP wrote:Thanks man. So just to me clear, this line will be similar to the lines Metro Transit is considering for the major bus routes in the cities. It's an ungraded local route as opposed to a run of the mill local route?


It's slightly different. The Red Line will have fewer stops than the Arterial BRT being proposed by Metro Transit. Also, this line is classified as "Highway BRT", therefore allowing CTIB regional sales tax to fund construction and operations. They are similar in that they will have TSP, and pre-boarding fare payment. This line will also have bus lanes along the arterial portion and bus shoulders on the highway portion, whereas the Arterial BRT lines will be mixed traffic. Arterial BRT lines will not recieve color designations and will not be a part of the "METRO" system.


thanks for the detail info, but do you think it should be a part of the "METRO" system or at least be a "in between" instead of number routes they could be alphabetical letters for arterial BRT ( the Hi frequented buses) for example the A route or B route or somthing different. The reason I ask is because it seems confusing to know which buses are hi frequented routes and which ones are not. The online interaction map is just so overwhelming I would imagine a touch of organization would do wonders!
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby NickP » June 11th, 2012, 9:05 am

I agree but I would still keep it numbers, just make it clear on the maps which routes are high frequency. I like what Metro Transit does now with the special map and the signs denoting high frequency along the routes. Boston has tried to do special labeling of the routes. It calls the CT (crosstown routes) and thus far I haven't been too impressed with them.
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby Tcmetro » June 11th, 2012, 9:10 am

METRO and HiFrequency/Arterial BRT lines are different. METRO has (supposedly) better service levels, fewer stops, pre-boarding payment, high reliability. I would imagine that the Hi Frequency lines are among the least reliable, which is made up by the good service frequency.

Any good map would show the METRO network, with HiFrequency buses as a secondary layer. At least, people will be able to see we have decent bus service, too.
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby Tcmetro » July 12th, 2012, 5:28 am

Looks like the 147th St Station will be built with provisions for a skyway in the future. Also, it looks like fencing will be placed in the median of Cedar to prevent jaywalking.

http://councilmeetings.metc.state.mn.us/Transportation/2012/0709/documents/07_09_2012_218presentation.pdf

The Apple Valley Transit Station reopens on Saturday with additional platforms. The new northbound platforms will feature level boarding, and riders can no longer wait on the sidewalk for the bus, and now have to remain inside the station building until the bus pulls up and the driver opens the platform door. I guess its "platform screen doors" for buses.

http://www.mvta.com/uploads/summer2_avts.pdf
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby mulad » July 12th, 2012, 10:02 am

Interesting. Well, the buildings better have good A/C if people are required to wait inside. I never would have thought of having an extra door opening just ahead of the bus for people who need to load bikes. People will have to watch for that step, though!

The Strib and PiPress covered the skyway situation at 147th Street station a little bit:

http://www.startribune.com/local/south/160974745.html
http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_ ... tations-at
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby MSPtoMKE » July 12th, 2012, 8:50 pm

These platform doors seem much more complex than necessary. It seems like having an open platform would be more flexible to allow for different bus lengths. And I am sure the little remote controls the bus drivers use to open the platform doors would never malfunction. And from what it looks like, if you load a bike in front you would have to go back into the station and through the main door to board the bus, since there is really no platform space outside the enclosure. This whole project certainly has some peculiar features to it.
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby mulad » July 12th, 2012, 9:52 pm

The platform is about 30 inches wide outside the doors -- should be fine for someone to stay outside after they put a bike on in front.

Of course, some BRT systems have bike racks inside the buses...
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby mattaudio » July 13th, 2012, 10:04 am

mulad wrote:Of course, some BRT systems have bike racks inside the buses...


But but but I thought BRT was LRT on wheels! :? :lol:
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Re: Cedar Avenue BRT (Red Line)

Postby mplser » July 13th, 2012, 11:02 am

lol this is looking more and more like a regular bus on the highway with new stations...
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » September 24th, 2012, 10:06 pm

Red Line will operate every 15 minutes 5am-7pm, every 30 minutes from 7pm-11pm, and every 30 minutes on weekends from 7am-10pm.

http://www.mnrides.org/sites/default/files/cedar_avenue_brt_-_s2s_-_2013_application-resubmitted.pdf
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby MSPtoMKE » September 24th, 2012, 11:50 pm

Disappointing that it will be only every 30 mins evenings and weekends, but I can't say I am surprised. I have always thought this project was a little odd, in a low density corridor.
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » September 25th, 2012, 12:01 am

I was hopping more information about the line would surface soon :)

Although I don't like the idea of only service ever 30min on the weekends! Once they open the outlet mall on the red line I think you may have a lot of people from the MOA wanting to take the red line to the outlet mall and if it only comes every 30min might be a rather long wait. Although when everything gets built i'm sure it would be rather easy to just increase the frequency if the demand is there.

Thanks for the update! Although the red line is looking smaller and smaller every time lol only 6 stations yikes!
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » September 25th, 2012, 12:13 am

Lancestar2 wrote:Once they open the outlet mall on the red line I think you may have a lot of people from the MOA wanting to take the red line to the outlet mall and if it only comes every 30min might be a rather long wait. Although when everything gets built i'm sure it would be rather easy to just increase the frequency if the demand is there.


Literally nobody is going to do this. Most of the traffic at the Mall is transfers of employees, not shoppers.
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