Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

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Lancestar2

Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » December 12th, 2012, 10:35 am

The route is not geared for people going downtown! The idea is that it's for suburbian people wanting to go to the Airport and MOA. They do have the option to go downtown via the blue line if they choose but they will be better of taking the express bus downtown to work!

IMO it gives much more flexability to workers in the area say they have to stay late past the express bus times then they have option of taking the blue then red line back home.
Again, none of this is a change from the current situation. You can catch a bus to the MOA at least once an hour (all day) as it is. I have done all of these things myself with the current system. The extra frequency is nice, but I would much rather see later hours of operation and more service on feeder routes than something that just duplicates existing service for the most part.
I do understand your point however I think the idea behind it is to attract people who would otherwise not ride the bus already. Giving it a shiny new look and big stations with skyways crossings really captures the attention of everyday people who view riding the bus as "unpleasant" and confusing (transferring from route to route) I am one of them I used to live around Palomino's park and ride and took the bus from their to MOA to downtown only because I was in the process of moving downtown. Of course I was shockingly surprised at the high level of comfort on a city bus! I think many people decide to hop in their cars and drive to the MOA instead of taking the bus when it could easily meet their needs! It basically almost as if they threw 30 lbs of glitter into the route to make it sparkly! :o

Although cedar ave is a road that has it's traffic issues and is limited to it's ability to expand the road way or convert more of the road to freeway. I think the project will be a huge improvement to the bus service by having the improved shoulders for the buses. Also If the commuter buses uses the same stations then it gives the people in the suburbs much greater incentive to use the stations and really starts them to reconsider using the bus instead of driving and can in theory help cap the traffic increases of 77

Of course this reminds me of that one comment I saw in another thread about how the city spends so much on nice cozy buses for the commuters from the suburbs while they neglect downtown routes which see much greater volume of commuters!...

Either way I don't think this route should be designated as a color route because it's really not a core route as it would fit in a ideal transit system because it for the most part feeds into the blue line. Although being that the metro has so few color routes (blue and green so far) I think it would be a great way to promote the route by giving the color title. Maybe in 30 years when we actually have a transit system or BRT, LRT, and streetcar system then maybe it should be redefined. Until then it's a great promotion strategy IMO. Also with the farm land on the south end of the redline their is great potential for dense development! I really like the concept of building transit routes before the entire route is developed it can help mold the transitway for example Paragon outlet mall! I think it will be very exciting to see what develops along cedar ave now!

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mullen » December 12th, 2012, 11:01 am

huh? you don't think this route should have a designated color but then state giving it a color is a good way to promote it. which is it? it might not be bus rapid transit in the most specific sense we see in other cities but it needs to tie into the system. giving it a color is a good thing, imo.

Lancestar2

Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » December 12th, 2012, 3:33 pm

huh? you don't think this route should have a designated color but then state giving it a color is a good way to promote it. which is it? it might not be bus rapid transit in the most specific sense we see in other cities but it needs to tie into the system. giving it a color is a good thing, imo.
Yes, I don't think the route should not have a designated color of it's own because daily traffic is going to be less than 1,000 a weekday and weekends should be far less I believe if the existing segment of blue line is around 30-40K a week and the green line will be slightly higher. I don't think the red line should be considered "equal" by having it's own color. Instead I think it would be better identified as either "light blue" or "blue line south" Which same thing on the other end of the bot. segment of the blue line. If their was a BRT bus route or a hi frequence route that fed linto the Northern most station it would be identified "light blue North" or "blue line north"

Of course I am talking about when the 2040 system is 100% built and even further down the line with other further segments like bus routes that will connect to the LRT lines. I like the idea of having all the street car routes and commuter rail routes having colors such as yellow for North Star and Red for Rush or Red rock corridor (I don't remember which one was getting commuter rail off the top of my head)

Being that the system is not yet fully developed it may be confusing to use terms like north blue line or light blue line but down the road in 2040 or 2050 I think it would be better way to identify the system route better when we have more routes that need colors. Yet I do agree with using it as red for now as it will be a good way to promote the route because RED LINE sounds way cooler than SOUTH BLUE LINE :geek:

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » December 12th, 2012, 3:42 pm

My idea:
- Backbone network of frequent and excellent transit has colors (this could include BRT but I don't think the Cedar BRT is good enough)
- Streetcars and arterial BRT have route prefixes. (S1, S2, A1, A2 etc)
- All commuter rail is branded as "Northstar Regional Rail" and the lines are distinguished with a line and a terminus (ex: R1/St. Cloud)

Basically, we need to have specific qualifications for how we define our services, and then we need to bundle these services and market them as a network. This creates consistent expectations about transit. A huge chunk of our population still doesn't understand the difference between LRT and Commuter Rail. Why try to confuse them even more?

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Nick » December 12th, 2012, 4:49 pm

^This.
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby eluko » December 15th, 2012, 12:27 pm

How many colors are recognizable by the general public anyway? 10? 15? All the pretty ones are being taken and we barely have a network built. And no ones going to want the pink, brown, white, yellow and black lines.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby min-chi-cbus » December 15th, 2012, 12:34 pm

How many colors are recognizable by the general public anyway? 10? 15? All the pretty ones are being taken and we barely have a network built. And no ones going to want the pink, brown, white, yellow and black lines.
au contraire! "Black" would probably be THE most popular color I'm guessing, and Chicago just implemented its first "Pink" line recently (and already has "Brown" and possibly "Yellow").

I STILL think the lines should have been named after the City or regional lakes: Harriet, Calhoun, Nakomis, Isles, Cedar, Diamond, Como, Minnetonka, etc.......I don't care if outsiders know what those names mean or not, it'd at least be unique.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby eluko » December 15th, 2012, 12:45 pm

I think Humphry and Lindbergh would agree.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby MSPtoMKE » December 15th, 2012, 12:56 pm

How many colors are recognizable by the general public anyway? 10? 15? All the pretty ones are being taken and we barely have a network built. And no ones going to want the pink, brown, white, yellow and black lines.
I wouldn't say we are exhausting the available colors too quickly. Even when Southwest, Bottineau and I-35W BRT open in 10 years or so (maybe), we will only have 4 color lines. The only other potential Metro line with extensive planning beyond that is Gateway. Running out of colors to name the lines is a problem that I would love us to have, but it seems far off.
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby twincitizen » February 5th, 2013, 7:43 pm

Challenge: can anyone find an actual map of this line, as it will be operating in just 4 months?

Not the abstract met council map with the future stations that might never happen, but an actual specific map of the route, including how it deviates from 77 to reach that Cedar Grove Station.

There is shockingly little current information on Met Council, MVTA, or Dakota County's website. You can find MVTA's proposed service changes & maps for other routes when Red Line starts operating.

Here's their BRT FAQ FWIW: http://www.mvta.com/BRT_Questions_and_Answers.html

Where's the damn route map?

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » February 5th, 2013, 8:16 pm

They sure don't seem to be developing this at a *rapid* pace. Har har.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby MSPtoMKE » February 5th, 2013, 9:51 pm

You are right, information on this project is a little hard to come by. There is this map on the Metro Transit website:
Image

It does not show the deviation required to serve Cedar Grove Station, or the loop-de-loop near the Mall of America to serve 28th Ave. Station (makes no mention of that northbound only stop). I doubt official route maps will show that it requires a deviation to serve Cedar Grove. There certainly has not been much fanfare, considering service is supposed to start in May or June. I assume that is when the Hiawatha Line will officially be rebranded as the Blue Line as well.

http://www.metrotransit.org/metro-red-line

The MVTA has made a lot of progress on the graphics for things like their printed timetables recently, but the system maps showing the proposed changes to bus service on this page are terrible:
http://www.mvta.com/mvta_seeks_input_on ... anges.html
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » February 7th, 2013, 10:42 am

The buses that currently stop at Cedar Grove en route to or from MOA exit Cedar/77 at Diffley, then go north on Nicols to the station. They then do the reverse to get back on the highway (unless they are the 444, 445, etc). I imagine they will keep doing that, since it is the only approach that makes sense.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » February 7th, 2013, 10:47 am

The maps in this PDF are quite decent at showing the proposed bus changes.
http://www.mvta.com/uploads/red_line_ch ... roof_3.pdf

The main difference is that only the 444 and the Red Line will travel to the Mall of America, and the other lines will be stubbed at Cedar Grove. A lot of the local routes look to be better that what exists, and it looks like they want more 475 service, which could cut the Hiawatha line out of some MVTA bus users commute.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mulad » February 7th, 2013, 10:49 am

Ah, it hadn't clicked with me that 28th Ave was northbound-only. I remember scratching my head about that at one point...

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » February 21st, 2013, 10:46 pm

A zipper lane for northbound HOT traffic between 138th St and Diffley, eh?

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mulad » February 22nd, 2013, 9:08 am

Ah. "Zipper lane" is not a term I'm familiar with -- I guess the name comes from the zipper-like movable concrete barrier that could get used?

http://www.startribune.com/local/south/192419131.html
The Minnesota Department of Transportation (MnDOT) is studying the possibility of turning one of the southbound lanes into a northbound lane during morning rush hours, blocking it off with a temporary barrier. It would be the metro area’s first reverse-flow “zipper” lane.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » February 24th, 2013, 10:03 am

Ah, it hadn't clicked with me that 28th Ave was northbound-only. I remember scratching my head about that at one point...
From some information I found today, 28th Avenue will be a temporary stop, until the City of Bloomington reconstructs Lindau Lane. When that happens, NB buses will no longer serve the 28th Av stop.

A new stop will be built for the Red Line at Mall of America. It's located at what seems to be the most inconvenient part of the bus station if you want to visit the mall or transfer to other buses, but it is close to the LRT station. Now, lets hope they can coordinate schedules between the Blue and Red lines.

Also, no opening date for the line has been set, but it looks like it will be picked in about another month or so.

http://www.co.dakota.mn.us/Government/P ... %20pac.pdf

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby LRV Op Dude » March 8th, 2013, 2:32 pm

Metropolitan Council Transportation Committee Monday, February 25, 2013

METRO Red Line Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) Update
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » March 8th, 2013, 2:50 pm

With the exception of the freeway segment (and there are no on-freeway stops) and the bus shoulders, how exactly is this different than the proposed aBRT closer to the core? Seems similar... a slightly nicer fleet, offboard payment/POP, nicer stops and digital signage, and signal priority. Honestly this service will be nice but I don't understand how this is LRT on wheels, meriting "Red Line" designation like Blue or Green.


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