Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

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Lancestar2

Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » September 25th, 2012, 10:16 am

Once they open the outlet mall on the red line I think you may have a lot of people from the MOA wanting to take the red line to the outlet mall and if it only comes every 30min might be a rather long wait. Although when everything gets built i'm sure it would be rather easy to just increase the frequency if the demand is there.
Literally nobody is going to do this. Most of the traffic at the Mall is transfers of employees, not shoppers.

What about the MOA during the holiday season, and finding parking is a nightmare! Shoppers could easily park at the outlet mall visit the stores then continue north via the red line to continue shopping! Also when the phase 2 of the MOA is completed there will be much more high end stores which visitors may also want to visit the outlet mall (provided MOA allows them to advertise inside the MOA)

Also call me insanely optimistic but with two stops on the red line with HUGE attractions (MOA and the outlet mall) Also Apple Valley station will be within a block or two distance from Cub Foods. 147th St. station will be near Walmart and many other smaller shops. Also I'm hopful that around Lakeville/cedar station they will build very dense residential projects and southward there is a lot of space for development. Granted this line on the south side may not truly be urban living given the long distance from downtown. However low income housing along this line could be nice for residents who could live on this transit line and be able to shop at cheap places (cub foods, walmart, goodwill, dollar tree, savers ect ect.) yet still have access to downtown and major shopping places like MOA and the outlet mall. rent prices currently in apple valley are pretty cheap!

I think this project eventually is going to be a great "suburbia-urban lifestyle choice" meaning for families struggling to make ends meet they can continue to keep have/rent a large townhouse for there big family have yard for the family dog and still be able to have easy access to a grocery store and be able to commute to work. Also having access to the MOA and downtown all without even having to have a car!

I know many people here don't like to think about a non urban way of life however I think this project is really more about encouraging people who would otherwise not consider riding public transit. :roll: perhaps a more cost effective option could have been throwing bucks of glitter at existing buses? Either way now that they invested in such a expensive project they need to build the housing to create the demand for the well soon to be existing red line.


And yes, it will be the next best thing to sliced bread! Discount high end merchandise people on a budget just LOVE that stuff :cry: <-- "tears of joy"

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » September 25th, 2012, 10:33 am

Very few people are going to take the BRT to Cub and Walmart, mainly because there are few residences within walking distance of the Red Line, and that it is nearly impossible to live without a car in the suburban areas. The ridership will likely be those travelling from Apple Valley to Cedar Grove and MOA for regional connections. Very few riders will actually be travelling between the Apple Valley stops. In an attempt to limit usability, the Palomino stop was eliminated, which is a huge cluster of apartments and trailer parks. The planning of this line has been horrible.

The land use in the area is completely dedicated to cars, and Cedar has actually been made worse for pedestrians since reconstruction for BRT. It is wider, there are fewer intersections, and road geometries have been modified to allow right turns at higher speeds. The new signal arm at Cedar and 42 is supposedly the longest in the state.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » September 25th, 2012, 11:37 am

Yep I wonder who had the idea to put "LRT on rubber tires" on Cedar Ave and then make Cedar Ave even worse for pedestrians as part of the project. The only area of this line that might do well would be the Cedar Grove / Cliff / Palomino areas but they are missing two stations there... The area south of 140th is a disaster from a planning perspective.

Are there "regional connections" at Cedar Grove? Does that mean commuters transferring from Apple Valley / Eagan towards DT St. Paul? If so, why not through-route this BRT on West 7th to St. Paul?

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » September 25th, 2012, 12:39 pm

Are there "regional connections" at Cedar Grove? Does that mean commuters transferring from Apple Valley / Eagan towards DT St. Paul? If so, why not through-route this BRT on West 7th to St. Paul?
There currrently isn't bus service directly to St. Paul from Cedar Grove. The only bus service to St. Paul in that area are the three express buses that run weekday mornings, and even then the nearest they get is Nicols and Diffley (why they wouldn't route them through Cedar Grove is beyond me since it is literally just down the street). Most of the bus service out of Cedar Grove are the local routes and the Minneapolis express buses.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » September 25th, 2012, 2:03 pm

Crazy. It seems like such an under-utilized station, especially with no easy connection to/from Cedar to the north. Anyone seen plans for final build-out so buses have more in-line operation to the station?

Also has anyone seen proposed travel times between MOA and AVTS or any other stations?

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » September 27th, 2012, 3:12 pm

I thought at one time I read something about building a platform right on Cedar(basically on the BRT line itself), with a skyway connection to the existing station. But that's pretty pie-in-the-sky, and I can't find any current reference to it either, for that matter.

I do think the station will see some more use once the mall is built and the area gets more developed. I live quite close to it, and it has gotten somewhat busier over time. But right now, yeah, it is in kind of a strange location, especially there isn't a quick access point right there.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mulad » September 27th, 2012, 4:53 pm

I'm pretty sure I've also seen a diagram of a station with platforms along the highway at some point. Maybe I made it up, but there's no way you can really call this "rapid" if buses have to make 2-mile detours (=4+ minutes) just to get to that station. It is a goofy location, though -- the current structure is farther north than some of the ramps to/from MN-13, so the skyways to get between platforms are guaranteed to be bigger than what would be necessary just a little bit farther south. But perhaps it's better to put the bus station there just in terms of safety so that you don't have buses decelerating/accelerating out of phase with what the cars and trucks are doing on the freeway.

Here's a guess as to what they might do. Busways in yellow/orange, platforms in black, and skyway in blue.


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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » September 28th, 2012, 2:23 pm

Did anyone have thoughts about interlining Red Line through to Riverview/7th Arterial BRT by way of MOA? Seems like it would make a lot of sense so people using Red Line stations (which have good express service to Mpls but not St. Paul) would have a one seat ride to Downtown St. Paul.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » September 28th, 2012, 2:38 pm

Having Highway 13 and its ramps bisecting Cedar just north of there does make the access hard. After all, it was the realignment of Cedar decades ago that cut off easy access to that portion of Eagan, which led to its decline. I would guess that the station is located where it is due to a lack of space elsewhere, plus originally there was going to be much more housing built right by it that would help provide a ridership base.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » September 29th, 2012, 10:08 am

I'm not sure that interlining the Red Line and the Cedar BRT is a good idea. A combined line would be around 70 minutes long, which could hamper reliability, and there would be such high turnover at MOA that the line might as well terminate there. I would imagine that there would only be a fraction of the riders continuing from south of the river to St. Paul.

Lancestar2

Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » September 29th, 2012, 3:35 pm

I really do like that design mulad though I wonder about the southbound buses being able to merge back in traffic with the higher speeds cars... (idk bout everyone else but I can drive pretty fast through those on ramps lol)

Also I hope the skyway design would connect directly to the parking ramp of the outlet mall! Of course with a staircase and elevator for people wishing to travel to non-outlet mall sites

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » September 29th, 2012, 4:02 pm

Nobody is going to take BRT to an outlet mall in Eagen. I'm not sure why you're so convinced this is going to be a major trip generator.

Lancestar2

Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » September 29th, 2012, 4:32 pm

Nobody is going to take BRT to an outlet mall in Eagen. I'm not sure why you're so convinced this is going to be a major trip generator.
Millions of visitors from out of state visit the Mall of America each year. Many of those visitors arrive at MSP Airport and travel to the MOA. Many visitors choose to rent a hotel room and stay a few days to see all the shops. With some MOA advertisement they can attract more shoppers to continue on the SAME rail system one stop more to the outlet mall that will have some discount high end shops! 400,000 sq ft. of discount high end merchandise. which the MOA is about 4.2M so im guessing what 8 or 9% the size of the moa.

we all know the MOA is unique but so will be the proposed outlet mall. I mean how can you think that this will not attract more shoppers via the red line? do visitors to the MOA from out of state drive mostly? Is their something I'm missing?

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » September 29th, 2012, 5:55 pm

If someone is already here in MN to do serious shopping and avoid sales tax, then MAYBE I can see a few people ALSO going to the outlet mall. But for the most part these outlets will probably be the same names you see in Albertville or any outlet mall in any state.

Lancestar2

Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » September 29th, 2012, 8:26 pm

they are opening several other "high end outlet malls"

Livermore

still in construction but will have some great name retailers!

http://www.paragonoutlets.com/construct ... more-video

http://www.paragonoutletslivermorevalley.com/

Also Grand Prairie is already built and here is some info about them

http://www.paragonoutletsgp.com/

http://www.paragonoutletsgp.com/mimages ... orymap.pdf

Also Neiman Marcus will close and Bloomingdales has already closed because people wernt willing to pay the added markup prices... Outlet stores typically sell the items slightly out of season at lower prices... hmmm... sounds like a GREAT stratagy for success on the red line to me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Nv5sv66hs

but yes, a lot of cross over into the exsiting outlet mall stores but were talking about a location that will be on a major transit line just ONE station to station ride from the MOA!

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » September 29th, 2012, 9:38 pm

It is suburban style shopping malls served by a poor frequency BRT line. Anyone tourist coming to the suburbs is going to rent a car, mainly because our bus system is pretty bad. MOA is the biggest mall in the country, it isn't comparable to an outlet mall.

The outlet mall will probably attract more trips to BRT from workers not shoppers.

Lancestar2

Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » September 29th, 2012, 10:50 pm

but that's the thing, you won't need to rent a car to shop at the MOA the LRT is quick easy and reliable! (from the MOA to MSP Airport) Also the MOA now has a hotel in the mall! and will have a skyway across the street where there is more access to more affordable hotel rooms

The visitors who come from outside the state really don't need to rent a car if they are comming here to shop! granted many tourists come to sight see many different places. What I am talking about are the people who travel here to SHOP. Im thinking about the 20-30 yr. old women flying here during the cold season because they got a cheap ticket and have a suit case to fill up in 2 or 3 days! and a credit card to go nuts with! lol

granted the outlet mall will be only one story but still will have 2 story parking lot as to increase the walk ability. Also with the planned development area there could be a walkway from just across the street of the station to all the way to the center of the outlet mall! About 100 different stores selling items at discount prices! EDIT plus the area for development will have even more retail stores or other places for shoppers to visit.

Just think for a moment any visitor to the MOA can can take a bus to Mystic Lake Casino, take the LRT to the Airport and downtown Minneapolis, soon to be Downtown St. Paul, and finally the red line BRT to a outlet mall that may have retail stores like outlet Bloomingdale's or Neiman Marcus and you don't think this may be a BIG deal? :o

Frequency of buses can always be increased on the weekend if the demand is there so that's changeable. Also during the holiday season I wouldn't be surprised if people visiting from out of town like Wisconson or Iowa will start using the park and ride and taking the Red line to the MOA and the Outlet Mall. Which may not be true positive transit use but I tired to park at the MOA during the holiday season ONCE then I learned to never do that again on a weekend day! :lol:

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » September 30th, 2012, 11:37 am

How many people honestly fly to MN just for the Mall, and on top of that miniscule number, how many do that but don't rent a car?

You keep implanting your weird transit fetishism on the general population, and I think you need to take a step back and realize that 1) You have bizarre ideas about what isn't and isn't practical, and 2) literally nobody shares your views.

Lancestar2

Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » September 30th, 2012, 12:59 pm

when the phase 2 of the MOA is completed there will be more of a high fashion, and high end clothing goods. I remember reading a news story about how they wan't to make the MOA a destination for high end shopping kinda like paris ect ect (of course I doubt they would be as successful as to create a clone of the fashion draw but still could be a draw from the surrounding areas.

What part of my idea do you think is so bizarre? My roommate and a few of his friends planned a trip to Chicago recently and because of budget concerns they took a cheap bus and didn't even rent a car the entire time! They managed to get by via the train network and a taxi here and there and they really got around to seeing alot of sites and had fun. Is the idea of visitors arriving via air, bus, or train and having a enjoyable vacation being car-less a bizarre idea?

Or do you think my idea being able to live in the suburbs without needing a car for about 90% of the time? As I have been hinting at the idea I think. I know I have a unique perspective, however what happens in 20 years when cars are to expensive to use? Everyone can't just up and move to the city. Suburbia transit lines connecting destinations together help build a option to live a car-free lifestyle.

Outlet malls are a great place to find some really good deals! The low income urban community really don't have the same access to a outlet mall as people who drive. (not to get all Pretty women up in here lol) I really am excited about this project, and I don't understand why most people wouldn't give a crap about it! I suspect it has to do something about the site and buildings just being "pretty painted standard big box retail" I do get that most people want density not suburbia sprawl. I get that traditional outlets malls are not very walk-able and many would think simple dense housing would be a better option.

Either way I will CONTINUE to be excited about this project because the twin cities has nothing like it! (although the other outlet malls are pretty close, thought they won't be easily accessable via transit) Maybe I will be wrong in 2025 the red line still wont get much usage and the outlet mall will be packed full of shoppers who rented cars to drive from the airport or drove from out of state or just drove across town :lol:

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » September 30th, 2012, 2:21 pm

People coming for a "Parisian" shopping experience aren't going to go to an outlet mall, and they're probably not going to take any transit, much less transit that isn't steel on steel (rail bias).

I recently went to Chicago for some shopping, and took the El as well. But to compare that experience to the Twin Cities is pretty stupid. Assuming that MOA becomes a world class shopping district that can be compared to Chicago, it's still entirely suburban in nature, catering first and foremost to the car. Chicago's shopping district, on the other hand, is in the middle of the city, where parking is extremely expensive, and walking or taking the train is both cheaper and faster.

And as for helping the poor, that's another pretty stupid idea. Is there going to be anything a poor person would want at the outlet mall? It's still expensive name brand stuff that they couldn't afford, and even if they could, do they have an hour or more to make the round trip with multiple transfers, when there's plenty of Targets and dollar stores here in the city?

In 20 years when cars are too expensive, car oriented suburbs will collapse on themselves. An outlet mall surrounded by parking lots with a walkway to a BRT with limited service levels does not TOD make. You're living in a fantasy world.


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