Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

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mattaudio
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » September 30th, 2012, 4:01 pm

I hope we can discuss the merits of something without calling it stupid. A lot of us have "crazy" ideas that may or may not rely on reality, but part of what we do here is discuss possibilities and what we'd like to project into the future if there were fewer constraints.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » September 30th, 2012, 4:24 pm

I'd love to discuss a future with fewer constraints, but I'm still going to assume the "constraint" of common sense.

But I'm still going to call a spade a spade. If we want to make a direct comparison between shopping in Chicago and shopping at the Mall of America, I'm going to call it stupid, because I don't know a better word. It's wrong, it ignores the built environment, it ignores rider preference, I have no other word to use than to call an idea stupid. If someone wants to come with evidence that a 3rd tier shopping district with a BRT connection to a 2nd tier shopping district that is itself connected by rail to the downtown of an area pretty bad for upscale shopping can be successful, then I'd love to hear it. But to compare the Mall of America and an outlet mall to The Loop or near loop areas of Chicago, or really anything in Paris, I just don't know what to say.

And for full disclosure, I live along the Hiawataha Line (Franklin Ave) and take the train to the Mall, because I don't have to fight traffic or parking and I get dropped off at the front door, and it takes me less time door to door than driving. And that last one is key. The roads are free, the parking is free, and the transit is free (because I've got an unlimited Metropass) so the only thing I have to make the decision on is time. If it would be faster to get to an outlet mall in Eagen by transit than to drive I still wouldn't go, because why would I go to an outlet mall, but if I really had to go and transit was faster and more convenient, I'd take transit. That's the only reason. I wouldn't go because I think transit is cool (I do), I wouldn't go for the environment (because my individual choice to drive or not isn't going to have an effect on anything, and none of my inputs/outputs are priced right anyway), I'd go because it's faster than driving. And about the only way transit is faster and more convenient than driving is the downtowns, University of Minnesota, the State Fair, and MOA during very limited times. The only way to make transit a better choice anywhere else is not to make transit better, but to make driving worse, and I don't see any evidence that anybody is going to do that.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » September 30th, 2012, 7:56 pm

But to compare that experience to the Twin Cities is pretty stupid.
Honestly, I have never really traveled to Chicago and got the full experience of the transit system. I was really talking about the access ability of everything via public transit mainly the train system. Also I do understand that for many people their transit needs is based on parking, cost, and time. Yet for many residents like me are wanting a transit network where we have access to everything they may ever want to visit. A little background about me I grew up just outside of Lakeville If you were to ask me then if I would ever be able to live a happy and comfortable car free lifestyle I would have thought you were nuts for even suggesting such a idea! (keep in mind I'm thinking of a car free lifestyle here in the twin cities NOT simply moving to NYC where that would be easy to live a car free lifestyle obviously!) Now my answer would be about 50/50. their is still much we lack to have a transit system that would allow people IMO to live a happy and comfortable car free lifestyle at a affordable rate. Also once I finish my online classes I will be pretty far in the hole so the idea of buying a new car once my car clunks out is mostly out of the picture. If the SW line is built by then I would be able to shop at cub foods and probably would flip my answer to 80/20 on being able to live a car free lifestyle with options about hour car and others making it probably 100% YES! Of course parking at Cub Foods is FREE! and very easy! It's not just about travel time, and cost of parking, for everyone. If you can easily afford driving there then why would you use transit besides if you felt it was "cool". Well not everyone is in the same position as you, which luckly I think helps increase the demand for LRT and BRT. That's what im mostly excited about! building a transit network that allows reliable and dependable transit and not the one hour a bus comes next hour 3 comes and the next 4 hours NOTHING deal.

it's still entirely suburban in nature, catering first and foremost to the car.
Sadly, yes but there is still hope! The center parking ramp will be 2 floors with room for a 3rd which I take as In the future they could move to develop the two side parking lots! :mrgreen: Which if the demand is there the site could become even more dense! For example the MOA just demolished a parking structure to make way for a nice hotel! Who knows what could eventually pop up in the parking lots maybe a 5-10 story office building or residential project! I think the site is well designed for future density when the property values increase once the mall is able to prove it is a success!
Is there going to be anything a poor person would want at the outlet mall? It's still expensive name brand stuff that they couldn't afford, and even if they could, do they have an hour or more to make the round trip with multiple transfers, when there's plenty of Targets and dollar stores here in the city?
I'm almost offended! :lol: You are referring to people in poverty (I think that's the term) people who barely can make ends meet by being able to afford food, housing and other basic costs and use public services like food shelfs, churches, and food stamps to get by. I am referring to poor as around 20,000-30,000 not quite middle class but not in the poverty level. Just because somebody is poor doesn't mean they are stupid enough to not know the difference between fashionable trendy clothes you can buy at many retailers vs. the cheap piece of s*** crap they try to pass as "fashionable" at walmart!!!! Keep in mind I do get most of my work clothes from walmart and a few grubby shirts from time to time. but to think that people when they get dressed up to have a date or a night on the town will be rocking walmart jeans :lol: now THAT's stupid IMO. Of course there is nothing wrong will sporting walmart clothes I do it myself time to time so I think that makes me a contradiction.
If it would be faster to get to an outlet mall in Eagen by transit than to drive I still wouldn't go, because why would I go to an outlet mall, but if I really had to go and transit was faster and more convenient, I'd take transit. That's the only reason.
Have you ever been to an outlet mall before? I know the designs of outlet malls can be very car friendly because for the most part they build outside of dense populations because it's cheap as they are selling items cheaper because of the markdowns. Regardless of the design of the outlet mall the fact of the matter you can get high end/brand name merchandiser at I think the story said 40-60% off reg. price. Any person who can easily afford reg. price or don't care to much about labels may not find this outlet mall enjoyable.

Neiman Marcus and Bloomingdale's are closing up shop because of the changing market. People are not buying there items because of the high cost. I am convinced that Neiman Marcus will have a presence at the outlet mall. I don't know to much about the fashion and retail classifications, but I'm pretty sure that right after Bloomingdale's left Neiman Marcus would have waited to see if they could steal their former rival's customer base. My guess is Neiman Marcus was approached about the outlet mall and jumped on board once they found out that Bloomingdale's was a tenant at Grand Prairie location. Also as for Bloomingdale's my guess is they closed only because of the store not performing as good as they expected. Also being that Bloomingdale's is already a tenant at another of Paragon's outlet malls (currently 3 other sites open/construction) I don't see why they would turn down a chance to come back to a market where they have spent so much effort in building there brand name and reputation! Of course they won't have the same approach stratagy as they did in the past.

I know you are very educated when it comes to city development and planning, but even all your past models and examples can't really compare. Bloomingdale's has been a MOA anchor for 20 years! Neiman Marcus im sure has a somewhat similar draw. This outlet mall does not have the makings to be just another bland outlet mall.

Although if both tenants decline to be included (which I don't see how they could!) then it might be kinda crappy lol :lol: ...but realistically Paragon sounds like they already have a few Ace's in there pocket and my guess one if not both already signed on the dotted line! :mrgreen:


EDIT Bloomingdale's will be at Grand Prairie, and Livermore. They already have a Orlando location that that may be why they declined the 3rd location

http://www1.bloomingdales.com/about/newstores.jsp


Neiman Marcus will be at Livermore, and they already have a Orlando location too and locations in Dallas about 20 miles away from Grand Prairie location.

http://www.cityoflivermore.net/citygov/ ... erview.asp

which proves to me it is very likely we will have BOTH at our brand new outlet mall!
Last edited by Lancestar2 on September 30th, 2012, 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Nick » September 30th, 2012, 8:23 pm

Does anyone else get the feeling this is some kind of crazy art project?
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mulad » September 30th, 2012, 9:46 pm

Yeah, something.

Well, I've finally been getting around to editing some Wikipedia pages again and decided to tackle renaming the page for this line to "Red Line (Minnesota)" and dealing with all of the mess that causes.

The page currently assumes that these stations either already exist or will exist when regular service begins:
  • Mall of America
  • Cedar Grove
  • Palomino Hills
  • 140th Street
  • 147th Street
  • Apple Valley Transit Station
  • Lakeville Cedar
Is that correct? The page also lists a few "later date" stations:
  • Cliff Road
  • 161st Street
  • Glacier Way
  • 195th Street
  • 215th Street
Are those still the planned ones? Do we know which ones exist yet? Google Maps has bus stop markers for 140th Street and 147th Street, even though they don't exist in the imagery. I think the Palomino Hills station has also been put on the back burner.

Anyone know off the top of their head where there will be exclusive lanes or at least shoulders for the buses vs. where they'll have to run in mixed traffic (not that I think mixed traffic is usually an issue on the freeway segments at least...). Are there any other fancy features included, such as traffic signal prioritization?

Do we know if there will be a specific route number for the Red Line itself? Or will it just be an amalgamation of a bunch of different lines, kind of like what exists today?

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » September 30th, 2012, 10:19 pm

The service will be as follows:

Red Line: MOA - 28 Av (NB) - Cedar Grove - 140th - 147th - Apple Valley

There are 2 BRT Express services, with funding provided by CTIB

475 - U of M - Downtown - Cedar Grove - Apple Valley
477V - extension from Apple Valley to Lakeville Cedar

The stations are correct, although I am unsure of the status of Palomino being a BRT station. It exists, but at the same time it is a future station, as it does not have BRT service.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby FISHMANPET » September 30th, 2012, 10:21 pm

Does anyone else get the feeling this is some kind of crazy art project?
The BRT or Lancestar's posting? :lol:
But to compare that experience to the Twin Cities is pretty stupid.
Honestly, I have never really traveled to Chicago and got the full experience of the transit system. I was really talking about the access ability of everything via public transit mainly the train system. Also I do understand that for many people their transit needs is based on parking, cost, and time. Yet for many residents like me are wanting a transit network where we have access to everything they may ever want to visit. A little background about me I grew up just outside of Lakeville If you were to ask me then if I would ever be able to live a happy and comfortable car free lifestyle I would have thought you were nuts for even suggesting such a idea! (keep in mind I'm thinking of a car free lifestyle here in the twin cities NOT simply moving to NYC where that would be easy to live a car free lifestyle obviously!) Now my answer would be about 50/50. their is still much we lack to have a transit system that would allow people IMO to live a happy and comfortable car free lifestyle at a affordable rate. Also once I finish my online classes I will be pretty far in the hole so the idea of buying a new car once my car clunks out is mostly out of the picture. If the SW line is built by then I would be able to shop at cub foods and probably would flip my answer to 80/20 on being able to live a car free lifestyle with options about hour car and others making it probably 100% YES! Of course parking at Cub Foods is FREE! and very easy! It's not just about travel time, and cost of parking, for everyone. If you can easily afford driving there then why would you use transit besides if you felt it was "cool". Well not everyone is in the same position as you, which luckly I think helps increase the demand for LRT and BRT. That's what im mostly excited about! building a transit network that allows reliable and dependable transit and not the one hour a bus comes next hour 3 comes and the next 4 hours NOTHING deal.


I totally understand all of this, because in some ways I agree with you. It's a kind of transit fetishism, and I share it. I would probably take a BRT to the outlet mall just to say I did. But I also have a fiancee who does not share this fetishism, and she would wonder why we're taking the bus when we could drive. And most people are like my fiancee, not like us, and the transit has to make sense, they're not going to take it just because it's transit.
it's still entirely suburban in nature, catering first and foremost to the car.
Sadly, yes but there is still hope! The center parking ramp will be 2 floors with room for a 3rd which I take as In the future they could move to develop the two side parking lots! :mrgreen: Which if the demand is there the site could become even more dense! For example the MOA just demolished a parking structure to make way for a nice hotel! Who knows what could eventually pop up in the parking lots maybe a 5-10 story office building or residential project! I think the site is well designed for future density when the property values increase once the mall is able to prove it is a success!
Retrofitting of Suburbia is going to happen a lot closer to the core, not out in Eagen initally. And let's not forget that, as far as I can remember, the expansion of MOA is held up by the city of Bloomington refusing to subsidize another parking ramp. The "ramp" they took down for the hotel was either a lot, or a double level, not an entire structure.

Is there going to be anything a poor person would want at the outlet mall? It's still expensive name brand stuff that they couldn't afford, and even if they could, do they have an hour or more to make the round trip with multiple transfers, when there's plenty of Targets and dollar stores here in the city?
I'm almost offended! :lol: You are referring to people in poverty (I think that's the term) people who barely can make ends meet by being able to afford food, housing and other basic costs and use public services like food shelfs, churches, and food stamps to get by. I am referring to poor as around 20,000-30,000 not quite middle class but not in the poverty level. Just because somebody is poor doesn't mean they are stupid enough to not know the difference between fashionable trendy clothes you can buy at many retailers vs. the cheap piece of s*** crap they try to pass as "fashionable" at walmart!!!! Keep in mind I do get most of my work clothes from walmart and a few grubby shirts from time to time. but to think that people when they get dressed up to have a date or a night on the town will be rocking walmart jeans :lol: now THAT's stupid IMO. Of course there is nothing wrong will sporting walmart clothes I do it myself time to time so I think that makes me a contradiction.
Target, Marhsall's, and Nordstrom Rack are all easily transit accessible and offer more stylish close for "lower class" residents. Outlet malls usually offer lower quality goods. A J Crew Outlet won't offer many actual J Crew products, most of them are specific lines made for Outlet stores. The same goes for most, if not all, outlet stores.
If it would be faster to get to an outlet mall in Eagen by transit than to drive I still wouldn't go, because why would I go to an outlet mall, but if I really had to go and transit was faster and more convenient, I'd take transit. That's the only reason.
Have you ever been to an outlet mall before? I know the designs of outlet malls can be very car friendly because for the most part they build outside of dense populations because it's cheap as they are selling items cheaper because of the markdowns. Regardless of the design of the outlet mall the fact of the matter you can get high end/brand name merchandiser at I think the story said 40-60% off reg. price. Any person who can easily afford reg. price or don't care to much about labels may not find this outlet mall enjoyable.
I've been to Albertville, Red Wing, and whatever's between Madison and Milwaukee (not the ones in Wisconsin Dells). Outlet malls are kind of a joke/trap, because you're really not getting the same high quality goods.
Neiman Marcus and Bloomingdale's are closing up shop because of the changing market. People are not buying there items because of the high cost. I am convinced that Neiman Marcus will have a presence at the outlet mall. I don't know to much about the fashion and retail classifications, but I'm pretty sure that right after Bloomingdale's left Neiman Marcus would have waited to see if they could steal their former rival's customer base. My guess is Neiman Marcus was approached about the outlet mall and jumped on board once they found out that Bloomingdale's was a tenant at Grand Prairie location. Also as for Bloomingdale's my guess is they closed only because of the store not performing as good as they expected. Also being that Bloomingdale's is already a tenant at another of Paragon's outlet malls (currently 3 other sites open/construction) I don't see why they would turn down a chance to come back to a market where they have spent so much effort in building there brand name and reputation! Of course they won't have the same approach stratagy as they did in the past.

I know you are very educated when it comes to city development and planning, but even all your past models and examples can't really compare. Bloomingdale's has been a MOA anchor for 20 years! Neiman Marcus im sure has a somewhat similar draw. This outlet mall does not have the makings to be just another bland outlet mall.

Although if both tenants decline to be included (which I don't see how they could!) then it might be kinda crappy lol :lol: ...but realistically Paragon sounds like they already have a few Ace's in there pocket and my guess one if not both already signed on the dotted line! :mrgreen:


EDIT Bloomingdale's will be at Grand Prairie, and Livermore. They already have a Orlando location that that may be why they declined the 3rd location

http://www1.bloomingdales.com/about/newstores.jsp


Neiman Marcus will be at Livermore, and they already have a Orlando location too and locations in Dallas about 20 miles away from Grand Prairie location.

http://www.cityoflivermore.net/citygov/ ... erview.asp

which proves to me it is very likely we will have BOTH at our brand new outlet mall!
This is complete conjecture, and since the outlet mall isn't even guarenteed to be built yet, I highly doubt that anybody has been aproached about opening a store. And I don't think we're going to see either of those stores come regardless.

Bloomingdales is owned by Macy's, and I think Macy's is the highest level retail the Cities can sustain. I doubt Bloomingdales is going to bring anything new to this market, since they already said they're abandoning it. I don't think Neiman Marcus has any outlet stores, so they're out as well. They have also stated they are abandoning this market.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Lancestar2 » September 30th, 2012, 11:20 pm

COME ON! are you referring to my posts as a "crazy art project" how much of a condescending pig can we imitate?

Yes, I know many of you work in the public sector or have careers related to city planning and development but doesn't mean your a superior capable of a higher level of thinking. It just means you have a lot more knowledge in which to predict more accurate assumptions and theories.

You can simply disagree with me and state that my ideas are not proven and have no data to suggest what I say will happen! But to refer to my posts and arguments as a crazy art project or to suggest that that what the OP had intended only reminds me childhood bullies who constantly insult the intelligence of others.

I'm sure the majority of the people here do have a higher level of intelligence than I many have on the topics discussed in the thread. I'm sure many check to the the treads only to see the name Lancestar2 and think :roll: "here we go again poor old lancestar2 is pounding his keyboard again trying to make sentences again"

I love to debate, and argue and this site is a great outlet for me to learn more about city planning and development and to have wonderful conversations. Although at time some individuals can at times be unwelcoming. I would think this community would encourage more people to get involved in their community and to share their ideas and to help educate them and gain more soldiers to advocate for more transit and to build a better community by voicing concerns.

that's my rant and instead of commenting my response to your statements I will just not comment on them this time. Also I apologize for being off topic but I really think we ALL need to a etiquette class so we can be more respectful of others feelings :lol: including me

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby QuietBlue » October 1st, 2012, 1:31 pm

I agree that it's more likely that anyone using BRT to get to that area is going to be someone working there. I think most people are going to drive for the reasons already mentioned. Is the idea that most of the traffic entering and leaving the mall is going to be doing so from 13? That would seem to be the most direct way.

I would like to see the development succeed as much as anyone else, but I am also trying to keep my hopes realistic and I will be more confident about it once it is actually built.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » October 31st, 2012, 9:34 am

A lot of the construction work is finished. All that is needed is the final layer of pavement, landscaping, and stations. The 140 St SB station appears to have its foundation poured.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » October 31st, 2012, 9:52 am

I drove this corridor last night and indeed it was nearly complete. I'm just amazed at how wide the roadway is... even the portion that WAS six lanes north of 153rd, it seems less pedestrian friendly than before. Probably because they took out most of the boulevard trees that had finally matured, made a wide bus shoulder, and made more double left turn lanes. It's really unfortunate that a big chunk of the project cost seemingly went to making Cedar a better facility for motorists at the expense of the walkability that would be needed to make a BRT project successful.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby MNdible » October 31st, 2012, 10:17 am

Dirty little secret: the success of suburban BRT will be entirely dependent on Park-and-Rides, not walkability. Sorry, urbanistas.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » October 31st, 2012, 10:25 am

I understand, and I think it would be a waste to try and have it be something greater in such a hostile environment. Basically I see freeway/corridor BRT as a way to provide linear off-peak service to supplement peak downtown express service.

My gripe is that it seems like this is highway expansion with transit dollars. I realize this is probably the appropriate facility for the corridor, but transit dollars should only be paying for transit amenities like dedicated shoulders, stations, and buses.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby seanrichardryan » November 5th, 2012, 7:53 am

Apple Valley seeks redevelopment along busway. http://m.bizjournals.com/twincities/mor ... n-its.html
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby min-chi-cbus » November 5th, 2012, 8:42 am

I like that part of Apple Valley, or at least the area just SE of the Cedar/42 intersection (around Galaxie Ave). It's one of the few/only examples of sustainable suburban development in the Twin Cities that's truly somewhat walkable, and isn't "faux urban" like Arbor Lakes in Maple Grove either. It's also one of the very few suburban/exurban communities I'd even consider as a place to live, simply because it has SOME walkability aspects. Hopefully this BRT line will make the whole area all-the-more walkable.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » November 5th, 2012, 8:59 am

Have you ever walked around there? It's atrocious. It's literally a bunch of run down strip malls, one story offices, and some of the largest intersections in the state.

Redevelopment along the BRT line? I'd like to see something, but I doubt the developers are going to go crazy over what amounts to a transit line that doesn't even meet the "Hi-Frequency" criteria. I can only imagine that redevelopment will cause more traffic problems, because none of them will use the bus with poor service hours that are hardly an improvement over the existing conditions. Wanna take the BRT to Apple Valley after 8 on a Saturday? Jokes on you, that's when the Red Line becomes the Green and White taxi.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby mattaudio » November 5th, 2012, 9:07 am

If they really want redevelopment along the BRT line, other than redeveloping park and rides, why did they just spend transit dollars on a massive expansion of the roadway?

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Tcmetro » November 5th, 2012, 9:12 am

Cedar BRT = use transit funds to build pedestrian hostile environment.

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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby Nick » November 5th, 2012, 9:22 am

If they really want redevelopment along the BRT line, other than redeveloping park and rides, why did they just spend transit dollars on a massive expansion of the roadway?
To make the south metro feel included? Yay democracy!
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Re: Red Line (Cedar BRT)

Postby min-chi-cbus » November 5th, 2012, 11:44 am

Have you ever walked around there? It's atrocious. It's literally a bunch of run down strip malls, one story offices, and some of the largest intersections in the state.

Redevelopment along the BRT line? I'd like to see something, but I doubt the developers are going to go crazy over what amounts to a transit line that doesn't even meet the "Hi-Frequency" criteria. I can only imagine that redevelopment will cause more traffic problems, because none of them will use the bus with poor service hours that are hardly an improvement over the existing conditions. Wanna take the BRT to Apple Valley after 8 on a Saturday? Jokes on you, that's when the Red Line becomes the Green and White taxi.
The neighborhood on Galaxie is quite walkable actually (I'm not talking about the area along Cedar).


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