Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

[thespeedmccool]

It’s certainly the best project we’ve gotten for nine figures in a while, and will be the best we get for nine figures for a while.

I'll vouch for the Gold Line being better. Since Lake Elmo forced Washington County to route it into Woodbury, it makes a lot more sense than it used to. It feels a lot more like no-compromises BRT than Orange Line, having exclusive lanes everywhere except downtown St. Paul (which is the most important place to have dedicated lanes, but Orange doesn't have dedicated lanes dowtown either so its moot as a point of comparison.)

The Gold Line adds a bunch of downtown St. Paul stops that lots of buses will use (including the B Line,) 5 stations in east St. Paul, a station in one of the lowest-income communities in the Cities (Landfall) and one really fantastic TOD station in Oakdale. The Woodbury portion is pretty meh from a transit standpoint, but there's at least a lot of opportunity, and a METRO station at 3M is objectively a great thing.

[alexschief]

The Orange Line's bang for the buck is greater, but if "nine figures" is your only criteria and you're agnostic between 100 million and 999 million, then yeah, the Gold Line is probably better.

[NickP]

[/quote]

I It feels a lot more like no-compromises BRT than Orange Line, having exclusive lanes everywhere except downtown St. Paul (which is the most important place to have dedicated lanes, but Orange doesn't have dedicated lanes dowtown either so its moot as a point of comparison.)
[/quote]

Out of curiosity, how come you aren’t counting the Marquette and 2nd Ave bus lanes as dedicated lanes?

[Bakken2016]

Yeah, Marq/2 are dedicated lanes in my opinion. Also, the City of Saint Paul I beleive already has bus lanes on 5th and 6th, they just aren’t painted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[StandishGuy]

The Orange Line is expected to serve 8,000- 10,000 riders per day with a capital cost of $150 million.

The Gold Line is projected to serve 6,000- 8,000 daily riders for a cost of $540 million.

We'll see if those projections come close or not in the coming years hopefully following the pandemic. Based on poor performance of the Red Line and Northstar, I'm skeptical they will.

IMO Metro Transit should be shifting away from just serving work trips towards providing decent all day service through a hyper-charged ABRT roll out. Instead, highway BRT and LRT into suburban sprawl is where most of the capital funding will go for the next decade. Both the Blue and Green Lines surpassed ridership projections because they served major destinations with mostly walkable urbanism in between. Plus, the municipalities along the route have promoted transit oriented development to further support the transit lines.

[thespeedmccool]

Yeah, Marq/2 are dedicated lanes in my opinion. Also, the City of Saint Paul I beleive already has bus lanes on 5th and 6th, they just aren’t painted.

Yeah that's my bad. I don't think of Marq/2 as bus lanes because I never notice them when I walk past.

Regardless, I went back and reviewed the Gold Line plans and there will be dedicated lanes through some of downtown St. Paul, but not all.

Does anyone know if Orange Line buses get signal priority downtown/anywhere? I don't know what the Gold Line is planning for that either.

As for ridership, I'm skeptical that either will hit its projections, but I imagine that in a pandemic world, Gold's number will have improved vis-à-vis Orange. If Gold loses 50% of it's projected suburban riders (who are working from home now) that will affect it less than Orange, I'd imagine.

[mpls_tc]

If it was a train, it would get way more riders. I dont care what anyone says. Trains are just more attractive. Calling it brt, is a way to make it sound better. It's just a glorified bus. It's a bus that doesn't stop as frequently and probably just as fast as a train would be. But it's still viewed as a bus.

[Bakken2016]

If it was a train it would get way more riders. I dont care what anyone says. Trains are just more attractive. Calling it brt is a way to make it sound better. It's just a glorified bus. It's a bus that doesn't stop as frequently and probably just as fast as a train would be. But it's still viewed as a bus.

But Metro Transit’s A Line and C Line have both bolstered ridership increases over the old local routes. I expect the Orange Line to do the same. Clever branding and less stops makes people want to ride the bus.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oreos&Milk]

Meh. Ridership on this $150 million project better be good to justify the huge cost.

I'm pretty frustrated with Metro Transit service lately on regular routes. The Route #23 down 38th Street continues to be delayed by detours including the never-ending rerouting around George Floyd Square and construction projects near the 38th St. LRT station. So sick of standing at bus stops for 20+ minutes with no shelter as cars whiz by at 40mph and the app keeps saying the bus is 10 minutes away... 30 minute service on routes like the #22 and #23 are terrible, and I'm sick of these expensive highway BRT and ABRT projects eating up ll the funding for capital improvements and service hours. It is irritating that the Orange Line gets fancy bus stop buildings in the middle of suburban sprawl while a lowly bus shelter is few and far between in the urban core.

I realize this is a total rant, the funding sources aren't transferable and that one doesn't necessaryiliy affect the other. However, regular bus service, mostly for people who do not have a choice to ride it, remains shitty. These projects designed to transport suburban commuters into downtowns are far too expesnive and take funding and energy away from where the real need is- better and more frequent service in dense, walkable places.

It’s almost as if there is the assumption we can’t have nice things in the urban core. Like we would tear them up or destroy them.. like breaking the shelter glass walls and using the light bulb glass for some strange drug related stuff..

While instead investing in large rural stations that is safe from…well safe from any human being at all. ..And not trying to RE[a]D to filth any specific line………

Maybe the problem lies with metropolitan council leaders having biases that are based on…..things.. but not willing to still NOT put us in the naughty corner because we’re not ALL naughty..

But in all seriousness designating more funds based on where they are generated by user fares seems like it might help.. everyone wants to cut the ribbon at a fancy new opening of a new line even if it’s just lipstick on an old neglected pig. We need to fire anyone and everyone cutting those ribbons and hire people who will just work hard and you know be content with the high paying salary most of these positions have wile most of us are working for pennies after rent payments.


Oh and turn the red line into an HOV lane with 4 passengers minimum and required purchased permit and help generate more revenue from that “definitely not a failure” line.

[Mdcastle]

I guess that new fancy Lake Street station isn't in "the urban core" then, it's way out in the corn and soybean fields rather than being in the "urban core". And the 46th Street station is in Iowa, not the "urban core".

Wasn't there an article a while back about how in the LRT stations there frequently wasn't heat because criminals were smashing the quartz heating tubes faster than they could be replaced? And someone posted here they're testing out metal screens rather than glass at one of the LRT stops.

As for the A and C lines, just think about how much more ridership the A and C lines would have if they had been light rail or streetcars instead of just buses. Rail bias is a thing even if we try to pretend that it isn't by slapping some fancy label on a bus.

[Trademark]

I guess that new fancy Lake Street station isn't in "the urban core" then, it's way out in the corn and soybean fields rather than being in the "urban core". And the 46th Street station is in Iowa, not the "urban core".

Wasn't there an article a while back about how in the LRT stations there frequently wasn't heat because criminals were smashing the quartz heating tubes faster than they could be replaced? And someone posted here they're testing out metal screens rather than glass at one of the LRT stops.

As for the A and C lines, just think about how much more ridership the A and C lines would have if they had been light rail or streetcars instead of just buses. Rail bias is a thing even if we try to pretend that it isn't by slapping some fancy label on a bus.

Or even if they had dedicated lanes. aBRT is good but my worry is that the people in power who don't ride transit will think that it's good enough. For example Central Ave probably deserves rail but because they are turning it into the F line. That pretty much guarantees that no further investment will happen there for the next 30-40 years. Smh.

[Hero]

I wish they would have spent more in south Minneapolis. Heck, I would trade the fancy Lake street station for three 46th st style stations at 38th, Lake and Franklin. And maybe Diamond Lake with a new route along 54th?

[Trademark]

I wish they would have spent more in south Minneapolis. Heck, I would trade the fancy Lake street station for three 46th st style stations at 38th, Lake and Franklin. And maybe Diamond Lake with a new route along 54th?

The fancy lake street has so many crucial amenities. The fact that it blocks wind much better then any light rail station I've waited at. The split platforms so that the bus doesn't slow down to an absolute crawl trying to get through the station. And the long platforms which is crucial to keep up with the demand during peak periods (if/when) the express routes return. And it would have always been more expensive just due to the fact that it's elevated which raises the price just on its own.

Franklin due to right of way from everything I heard would have made it extremely difficult to build a station. Although I agree it would have been awesome to have a station there.

[Nick]

It’s certainly the best project we’ve gotten for nine figures in a while, and will be the best we get for nine figures for a while.

I'll vouch for the Gold Line being better. Since Lake Elmo forced Washington County to route it into Woodbury, it makes a lot more sense than it used to. It feels a lot more like no-compromises BRT than Orange Line, having exclusive lanes everywhere except downtown St. Paul (which is the most important place to have dedicated lanes, but Orange doesn't have dedicated lanes dowtown either so its moot as a point of comparison.)

The Gold Line adds a bunch of downtown St. Paul stops that lots of buses will use (including the B Line,) 5 stations in east St. Paul, a station in one of the lowest-income communities in the Cities (Landfall) and one really fantastic TOD station in Oakdale. The Woodbury portion is pretty meh from a transit standpoint, but there's at least a lot of opportunity, and a METRO station at 3M is objectively a great thing.

I don’t think very many people are going to ride half a billion dollars worth of Gold Line.

[thespeedmccool]

It’s certainly the best project we’ve gotten for nine figures in a while, and will be the best we get for nine figures for a while.

I'll vouch for the Gold Line being better. Since Lake Elmo forced Washington County to route it into Woodbury, it makes a lot more sense than it used to. It feels a lot more like no-compromises BRT than Orange Line, having exclusive lanes everywhere except downtown St. Paul (which is the most important place to have dedicated lanes, but Orange doesn't have dedicated lanes dowtown either so its moot as a point of comparison.)

The Gold Line adds a bunch of downtown St. Paul stops that lots of buses will use (including the B Line,) 5 stations in east St. Paul, a station in one of the lowest-income communities in the Cities (Landfall) and one really fantastic TOD station in Oakdale. The Woodbury portion is pretty meh from a transit standpoint, but there's at least a lot of opportunity, and a METRO station at 3M is objectively a great thing.

I don’t think very many people are going to ride half a billion dollars worth of Gold Line.

I'll echo what alexschief said and say that Gold is a better project, probably less bang-for-your-buck though.

Regardless, these suburban BRT routes are what you get when counties lead transit projects. In a just world, the Orange Line wouldn't cross the river and Gold wouldn't cross 694, but if some suburban stops is what it takes to get urban improvements like the Lake Street Station, it's a tradeoff I guess we'll have to accept.

Also, I had a question on if the Orange Line cost ususally thrown around is the "true" cost. For example, the EZPass lanes that Orange Line uses were factored into the cost of various 35W expansions, no? Is it really accurate to say Orange Line cost $150 million~ when it only works thanks to majorly expensive freeway reconstructions?

[Tcmetro]

For what it's worth, there were HOV lanes in much the corridor before the reconstruction.

[Mdcastle]

The Orange Line isn't the only bus that uses the E-ZPass lanes and the E-ZPass lanes, including the new southbound one just built, would exist without the Orange Line. So no, it's not accurate to include them in the cost.

I'm also not sure why we think 98th Street is a more suitable end for the Orange Line than Heart of the City. Bloomington's grandiose plans for the area are just vaporware right now- I don't see a bunch of developers clamoring to build cute mixed use stuff in place of all the strip malls right now- and and the Lakewinds Co-op which the developer can probably build by-right will cement in low intensity land use on half of Clover Center for decades, and once motorists cross the river they're probably just going to keep driving to downtown rather than pull off at 98th Street and park.

[Hero]

I wish they would have spent more in south Minneapolis. Heck, I would trade the fancy Lake street station for three 46th st style stations at 38th, Lake and Franklin. And maybe Diamond Lake with a new route along 54th?

The fancy lake street has so many crucial amenities. The fact that it blocks wind much better then any light rail station I've waited at. The split platforms so that the bus doesn't slow down to an absolute crawl trying to get through the station. And the long platforms which is crucial to keep up with the demand during peak periods (if/when) the express routes return. And it would have always been more expensive just due to the fact that it's elevated which raises the price just on its own.

Franklin due to right of way from everything I heard would have made it extremely difficult to build a station. Although I agree it would have been awesome to have a station there.

It isn't as if we could actually trade the Lake street station at this point for anything but I find it maddening that the five miles north of the crosstown has half the stations of the five miles to the south. Shouldn't we build transit where the people are and where they want to go? I keep getting the feeling Minneapolis is constantly being short changed.

[twincitizen]

There's a reason for everything, folks. And the reason why a station at 38th St wasn't ever considered as part of *this highway construction project* is because our Regional Transitway Guidelines call for highway BRT to have stations every 2 miles. Someone should probably talk to Met Council about changing this: https://metrocouncil.org/Transportation ... px#page=28

*not addressing Diamond Lake since that was outside the bounds of the recent 35W project. And I think we can reasonably agree that while a Franklin Station would have been nice (particularly for reverse commuters), it would have been extremely challenging to add a station within the existing ROW due to the multitude of highway lanes converging. And referring again to that lovely Met Council document, there's even a specific criteria for highway BRT that doesn't apply to other modes: "Minimum Distance between Minneapolis/St. Paul Central Business Districts and Next Station: 1 mile or longer".

As it applies to any future highway BRT projects, the only one that really matters to me is I-35W/MN-36 to Roseville. The rest I hope are never built, aside from extending the Gold Line along 94 to Minneapolis, and perhaps a I-94/694 line running through North Minneapolis to Brooklyn Center. As it pertains to the 35W/36 BRT, yeah I'm absolutely concerned that there would potentially be only a single station in Minneapolis city limits outside of downtown.

[LakeCharles]

There's a reason for everything, folks. And the reason why a station at 38th St wasn't ever considered as part of *this highway construction project* is because our Regional Transitway Guidelines call for highway BRT to have stations every 2 miles.

[...]

And referring again to that lovely Met Council document, there's even a specific criteria for highway BRT that doesn't apply to other modes: "Minimum Distance between Minneapolis/St. Paul Central Business Districts and Next Station: 1 mile or longer".

[...]

As far as 35W/36 to Roseville, yeah I'm absolutely concerned that there would potentially be only a single station in Minneapolis city limits outside of downtown.

I think you could fit two in with those restrictions, at 4th/University and Stinson/Quarry, which I think are the natural choices. I'd be fine with one at Hennepin and/or Broadway as well, but I don't think just having those two would be dire.