DTE: Wells Fargo, Radisson Red, Edition Apts & Millwright Building

[Nathan]

Perhaps a farmer's market might be more appealing to the folks here?

good one. Something used once a week, 4 months a year, and there are only 1,405,204,289 other ones in the city.

[Nathan]

Sometimes Skate parks look really cool and are excellent recreational facilities...

[Viktor Vaughn]

I absolutely love this idea. As a (mostly retired) skateboarder, I'd be unlikely to use the park's big features, but hopefully they'd include an approachable mini ramp I could use to teach my son (he's not even two yet, so that gives them a couple of years to build it).

Despite the crochety urbanist comments about not liking the noise, I'd submit that skateboarding makes a better spectator sport than just about any other. I mean who's going to stand around and watch some people play tennis in the park? Skateboarding has that combination of danger, daring, and grace that just makes people pause to watch to see if they'll pull off the trick or crack their skull. And if they built a truly great central skate park, their will be kids ripping it all the time. I really can't think of a better way to activate a park on the edge of downtown.

You could argue that skateboarding is a fad that will wane, but it's been on a twenty year upswing, so I doubt that's the case. Building a park like this will actually attract new skateboarders.

The park in Philly is freaken gorgeous. I've long had fantasies that landscape architects would actually design to make things skateable, rather than purposely making them unskateable.

And Philmerphil, thanks for sharing the lilnk to the park and Rec survey.

Finally, I'd just like to share this MinnPost column, The Stroll, regarding the intersection of skateboarding and urbanism in Minneapolis.

http://www.minnpost.com/stroll/2013/03/ ... l-map-city

[kirby96]

How is this a strawman considering that most people on this board are vying for Downtown East to become the next big residential neighborhood in Minneapolis...

The seasonal argument is a total strawman.

A strawman is when you attack a position your opponent did not make (i.e. you construct a 'strawman' that is easy to defeat and then attack it) I don't believe that anyone has stated they want kids to sit around and play Tony Hawk video games. The weather argument is not a strawman. It's actually true that a skatepark, unless temporary, goes underused in the winter. The fact that there are other underused facilities in the winter has no bearing on that. If there were two options for this park and they were otherwise equivalent in their cost, ability to draw people in and engage the community, etc., but one could be used year round and the other not, I think we'd choose the year round option everytime.

[Rich]

Is there something deficient about the skate facilities at Elliot Park? I think building a new skatepark 0.6 miles from an existing one may be wasteful.

Agreed.

[Viktor Vaughn]

Is there something deficient about the skate facilities at Elliot Park? I think building a new skatepark 0.6 miles from an existing one may be wasteful.

Yes. Deficient would describe the facilities at Elliot Park perfectly. If the idea is to create a "world class skatepark" it should have about as much in common with the facilities at Elliot Park as the new Saints Stadium will have with baseball fields all over the city.

[Viktor Vaughn]

A strawman is when you attack a position your opponent did not make (i.e. you construct a 'strawman' that is easy to defeat and then attack it)

I would guess that when he called the seasonal argument on a straw man he meant that no one was claiming the skate park would be used year round. It's not really that different than the facilites for basketball, tennis, baseball, and every other sport. As it turns out, outdoor activities are generally seasonal around here.

All grant you this, though -- not every sport can build a billion dollar temple to use to capacity 10 afternoons a year.

[MNdible]

Seems like there are two questions here:

1. Should the city have a world class skate facility?

2. Should the skate facility be a major component of the proposed Ryan park?

To the first, I'd say maybe. I'm not sure that there really are enough potential users to justify the big expense to do it right, but I could be convinced otherwise.

To the second, I'd say definitely not, for the same reasons that I'd be opposed to tennis courts or softball fields or any other active sport that most people aren't involved with. This should be an urbane park, not an athletic field.

Bocce ball courts might be OK.

[Nathan]

So my question is... Everyone wants the new stadium and this "yard" to not be static areas, and to draw people to use them, but no one wants activities or anything in them, except for fountains and sculptures... What is it that people think IS going to draw people to use these spaces 24/7/365 then? Unlike NYC and CHI and SFO we don't have lots of random tourists to wander them. The parks that we do have that are the most highly utilized IMO are the ones that feature recreation/lakes/trails and activities so our residents can get out and use them. As much as I like Loring Park, and like it for events and to bike through, it's not that utilized, except for the sport courts. Rarely do I hear someone say lets just go sit in Loring park. It's usually hit the beach, or Japanese Garden, or walk around minnehaha falls... So what's going to make this more popular than any of our already fantastic natural resource parks, draws people downtown from the grand rounds? That isn't recreational facilities?

[Rich]

I'd be opposed to tennis courts or softball fields or any other active sport that most people aren't involved with.

I agree. No tennis courts, softball, skateboarding etc. I think it'd be better to install something versatile.

To that end, a good amenity would be a very large, flat, treeless expanse of grass. It's a soccer field, a frisbee area, a kite flying zone, a place for volleyball, bocce, a picnic spot or just a place to suntan. It can host an outdoor film festival, an arts and crafts fair, a free summer concert series or a political rally. In winter it's a huge skating rink or an ice or snow sculpture contest. You get the idea.

An enormous piece of grass has the most potential for the most possible people to use as they please. It can be surrounded by trees, fountains, food stands, bistro tables and so on (See Bryant Park, NYC). And it's relatively inexpensive to install and maintain.

[MNdible]

So my question is... Everyone wants the new stadium and this "yard" to not be static areas, and to draw people to use them, but no one wants activities or anything in them, except for fountains and sculptures... What is it that people think IS going to draw people to use these spaces 24/7/365 then?

Well-executed concessions that augment the park experience. In the few locations where Minneapolis has made even a passing effort at this, they've been rousing successes. For some reason, most other cities figured this out a long time ago. People love sitting in parks and eating and drinking. We don't need to invent this from scratch -- there are countless examples of great, urban squares around the world. Just pick a good one and copy it.

[Viktor Vaughn]

To that end, a good amenity would be a very large, flat, treeless expanse of grass. It's a soccer field, a frisbee area, a kite flying zone, a place for volleyball, bocce, a picnic spot or just a place to suntan.

Sounds like a yard...

[Nathan]

So my question is... Everyone wants the new stadium and this "yard" to not be static areas, and to draw people to use them, but no one wants activities or anything in them, except for fountains and sculptures... What is it that people think IS going to draw people to use these spaces 24/7/365 then?

Well-executed concessions that augment the park experience. In the few locations where Minneapolis has made even a passing effort at this, they've been rousing successes. For some reason, most other cities figured this out a long time ago. People love sitting in parks and eating and drinking. We don't need to invent this from scratch -- there are countless examples of great, urban squares around the world. Just pick a good one and copy it.

That works in the warm seasons, but I still bring visitors to Minnehaha Falls in the winter. Why would people go to the big sheet of grass in the winter? Skating Rinks are recreational facilities and are essentially the winter equivalent of a skate park, why couldn't the rink go over the skate park? And why would they rather skate there than at the Depot or on Lake of the Isles or at the Landmark Center in St Paul, all 'cooler' places to go skating by a long shot... They already do music and movies in other parks, so is this just stealing programing? They plan on doing concessions at the new Waterworks park on the river, with better views and cool ruins, blocks away... I'm just saying we already have a lot of these things in large quantity what is going to make this man made park with all of the same features better than all of the other parks? What's the draw.

[Rich]

Sounds like a yard...

Indeed. Yards are popular. At Calhoun, people gather at the grassy southwest corner, on college campuses, people gather in the quad or on the mall. In Central Park, people gather in Sheep Meadow. Big flat pieces of grass are people magnets.

[mulad]

I have a hard time believing the grassy areas of Como Park perform better than the picnic tables and pavilions/shelters in terms of usage. I generally see the expanses of grass as a waste -- I'd rather see a greater use of prairie grasses and other plantings. A section set up for flower gardens maintained by nearby apartment residents (like at Mears Park) might also be nice. I wouldn't go so far as to eliminate all grassy space -- it is good to have frisbee areas, places to fly kites, etc., but Como Park has more grass than really makes sense.

I'm not sure what should be done in Minneapolis, but I really like Mears Park and Rice Park as examples of what to do in an urban setting. Como Park is much more suburban in character.

[FISHMANPET]

I don't think trying to create a best in the region park is going to do anybody any good. This should be a park that serves the residents of this neighborhood. I'm not sure what that is, but I don't think skate park is it. If the Elliot park skate park is in bad shape, then let's just fix that one up.

Aren't there huge liability issues with skate parks?

[seanrichardryan]

They could put down some type of hard surface so people could park their cars and grill.

[seanjg]

dup

[seanjg]

Minneapolis should look to Cincinnati's Washington Park for some inspiration on how to use this space. A lawn with a stage for events and pickup games, a modest dog park, a unique children's playground, fountains you can play in, and plenty of space in the shade for R&R. Even 450 parking spaces underneath. It's a world class space.

wash park.jpg

Washington-Park-at-night-via-James-Jenkins.jpg

to do_washington park opening_photo 3cdc.widea.jpg

7831350414_9841b3b71f_z.jpg

7528892304_f266a5ddac_z.jpg

[twincitizen]

They could put down some type of hard surface so people could park their cars and grill.

Forum over. We can all go home now folks.