urbanMSP

A better system will be in place once we stop tipping the scales towards SOVs. Is it not social engineering that we've built a system where there's a 15 minute commute by SOV, subsidized 58% by taxpayers, yet a transit alternative takes over an hour?

Also, a 15 minute commute is probably not very congested and therefore would have a relatively low (if not even zero) toll.

True, but I would argue that we shouldnt toll those roads until we have adequate infrastructure in place. Otherwise, you are still only giving people the same option, but now paying more for it.

In general they wouldn't be paying more. They're already paying the full price in terms of general fund dollars that cover the costs the gas tax doesn't. I'm all for making those costs more visible to people. Someone who doesn't drive at all would pay less (since not as much general fund money would go to freeways) but that's a pretty small minority of the population. Some heavy drivers would pay more, but shouldn't they? They cause the most wear and tear on the roads.

None of the five proposals for toll roads went anyplace in 1996 because the affected cities refused to support them, and I don't think we're going to start now. If we want to charge users the full cost of roads the simplest thing would be to raise the gasoline tax, and that wouldn't make things harder for tourists like all electronic toll roads do. There's effectively a $35 toll to visit Key West for a week because you have to subscribe to the rental companies "toll by plate" unless you want to figure out how to buy and register your own transponder or drive on Miami area surface streets. (Although I guess that's cheap compared to the $45 toll I'll pay this fall to visit Prince Edward Island).

? When I visit Houston for work (and driven to Austin and San Antonio as part of some trips), every car has a transponder in it at no charge. Your tolls show up on your credit card bill within a week. Worrying about what few tourists we have here because of an easy-to-solve technical problem should be among the least of our worries.

None of the five proposals for toll roads went anyplace in 1996 because the affected cities refused to support them, and I don't think we're going to start now. If we want to charge users the full cost of roads the simplest thing would be to raise the gasoline tax, and that wouldn't make things harder for tourists like all electronic toll roads do. There's effectively a $35 toll to visit Key West for a week because you have to subscribe to the rental companies "toll by plate" unless you want to figure out how to buy and register your own transponder or drive on Miami area surface streets. (Although I guess that's cheap compared to the $45 toll I'll pay this fall to visit Prince Edward Island).

Is this something new? I do not remember the road being toll from homestead to key west????

Worrying about what few tourists we have here because of an easy-to-solve technical problem should be among the least of our worries.

Kind of off topic but we are gaining more and more tourist. At least from what I've seen, lots of people from out of state for events and festivals or just to see why people keep talking about Minneapolis.

None of the five proposals for toll roads went anyplace in 1996 because the affected cities refused to support them, and I don't think we're going to start now. If we want to charge users the full cost of roads the simplest thing would be to raise the gasoline tax, and that wouldn't make things harder for tourists like all electronic toll roads do. There's effectively a $35 toll to visit Key West for a week because you have to subscribe to the rental companies "toll by plate" unless you want to figure out how to buy and register your own transponder or drive on Miami area surface streets. (Although I guess that's cheap compared to the $45 toll I'll pay this fall to visit Prince Edward Island).

Is this something new? I do not remember the road being toll from homestead to key west????

Unless you enjoy sitting in stoplight hell on US 1 the only reasonable way to get to Homestead is Florida's Turnpike, which no longer accepts cash for that section. I used it elsewhere in Florida (I put 1400 miles on the rental car without leaving the state) so I at least got about $15-$20 in tolls out of it, but if you just want to drive from the Miami Airport to Key West it's a pretty bum deal.

They're trying to get SunPass and EZ-Pass inter-operational but aren't there yet (and won't help us since MnPass picked an obscure 3rd system). Being able to read EZ-Pass in Florida is closer than the inverse, Florida has tri-mode readers on their toll roads that were installed when they implemented stickers. Currently they can the older battery models, newer RFID models, and sticker tags. Florida is retiring the oldest models so they can retune one of the frequencies to read EZ-Pass. Going the other direction may require license plate readers since EZ-Pass equipment is usually single mode only.

A better system will be in place once we stop tipping the scales towards SOVs. Is it not social engineering that we've built a system where there's a 15 minute commute by SOV, subsidized 58% by taxpayers, yet a transit alternative takes over an hour?

Let's see if I buy this. Come up with a way for the state government collect money by tolling the roads that we have now. Doing that will lead to a system being put in place where less people will pay to use the roads that the government collects money on?

Nope I don't buy that one bit. If you don't have a viable transit solution in place before you start tolling roadways it would be a disaster for lower income families. We talk about sprawl being a problem and it is, but that sprawl contains jobs and housing and people need to get to their jobs. Creating hour plus commutes on either end of the workday simply is a non-starter.It would be nice if everyone could get a job where they can commute by bicycle or bus/train but that simply is not reality and it will not be reality any time soon.

Let's see if I buy this. Come up with a way for the state government collect money by tolling the roads that we have now. Doing that will lead to a system being put in place where less people will pay to use the roads that the government collects money on?

Nope I don't buy that one bit. If you don't have a viable transit solution in place before you start tolling roadways it would be a disaster for lower income families. We talk about sprawl being a problem and it is, but that sprawl contains jobs and housing and people need to get to their jobs. Creating hour plus commutes on either end of the workday simply is a non-starter.It would be nice if everyone could get a job where they can commute by bicycle or bus/train but that simply is not reality and it will not be reality any time soon.

So is your solution to wait until we build a transit line to every corner of the metro currently served by freeways before we start tolling? Did you consider tolling is a means to fund corridor transit rather than waiting for CTIB money, sales tax bumps, and federal funding that may never happen? Given the nature of suburban land-use today (and even in a transit-served future - we know it will include generous park and rides), wouldn't low income people be better off meeting at a central spot and carpooling, paying a marginal amount per person to travel in the fast lane (while saving gas money vs the individual commute option)? I'm failing to see how tolling now is bad in the short-term.

How does tolling create hour long commutes on either end of the workday? Unless you're advocating continuing to expand capacity of freeways while also building transit?

Everyone could have had a job accessible by bike or transit if untolled freeways weren't built in the first place.

Everyone could have had a job accessible by bike or transit if untolled freeways weren't built in the first place.

However, this would require a noticeable increase in residential density that would likely be opposed by NIMBYs. Either that or a further spreading out of job concentrations (out of downtown, Bloomington Strip, etc etc) to where current population lives.

Tolling freeways isn't going to build some urbanist fantasy utopia where everyone lives in cramped apartments a few blocks down from their job. Some people are still going to want all the benefits suburban living provides. Non-tolled freeways basically don't exist in the Chicago suburbs and it's as stereotypical spread-out growth as anwhere else. The people who will be hurt are the poor tradespeople who can't take their ladders and buckets of joint compound on a bus or bicycle from one job to the job in the city, not the rich people who will just pay a bit more to use their Lexuses.

Tolling freeways isn't going to build some urbanist fantasy utopia where everyone lives in cramped apartments a few blocks down from their job.

Christ, can we *please* get beyond this strawman?

The people who will be hurt are the poor tradespeople who can't take their ladders and buckets of joint compound on a bus or bicycle from one job to the job in the city, not the rich people who will just pay a bit more to use their Lexuses.

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Look, there are roads other than tolled freeways, even in Chicagoland. US highways aren't tolled there. How in the world do the to-be-pitied Chicagoans get to Evanston?

The appeal to be poor would be more convincing if it didn't come from those who benefit the most from "free" freeways. It's about on the level of Kenilworth residents railing against SWLRT in the name of the poor.

The concern about low income people is legitimate - perhaps not enough to reject the idea, but somebody who claims to be all about the urban poor might be expected to be less dismissive of this significant side effect of tolling. I live 1.5 miles from work, put 5000 miles a year on my car and avoid interstates whenever possible so I can't be said to be invested in this question.

The concern about low income people is legitimate

The issue is certainly legitimate. The concern expressed by certain parties, however, seems disingenuous to me.

We do have the technology to reduce fees and/or provide rebates for the poor. It is not a reason to outright reject tolling without further conversation.

Let's see if I buy this. Come up with a way for the state government collect money by tolling the roads that we have now. Doing that will lead to a system being put in place where less people will pay to use the roads that the government collects money on?

Nope I don't buy that one bit. If you don't have a viable transit solution in place before you start tolling roadways it would be a disaster for lower income families. We talk about sprawl being a problem and it is, but that sprawl contains jobs and housing and people need to get to their jobs. Creating hour plus commutes on either end of the workday simply is a non-starter.It would be nice if everyone could get a job where they can commute by bicycle or bus/train but that simply is not reality and it will not be reality any time soon.

So is your solution to wait until we build a transit line to every corner of the metro currently served by freeways before we start tolling? Did you consider tolling is a means to fund corridor transit rather than waiting for CTIB money, sales tax bumps, and federal funding that may never happen? Given the nature of suburban land-use today (and even in a transit-served future - we know it will include generous park and rides), wouldn't low income people be better off meeting at a central spot and carpooling, paying a marginal amount per person to travel in the fast lane (while saving gas money vs the individual commute option)? I'm failing to see how tolling now is bad in the short-term.

How does tolling create hour long commutes on either end of the workday? Unless you're advocating continuing to expand capacity of freeways while also building transit?

Everyone could have had a job accessible by bike or transit if untolled freeways weren't built in the first place.

All very good questions. But I don't buy for a second that the state is going to start tolling and then use the money from tolling to spend it on a system that would decrease the amount of people paying the tolls. Oh you will have a lot of politicians telling you that's what they WILL do... when it comes down to it there isnt' a chance they will.

Tolling doesn't create hour long commutes. Inefficient transit options do.

The idea that everyone could have a job accessible by bike or transit if untolled freeways weren't built is a fallacy.

How did it work a century ago?

How did it work a century ago?

Tenements and massive poverty, job lock-in, and giant manufacturing concerns which dominated an area's workforce. The past wasn't pleasant just because it didn't have cars.

Yes, cars clearly solved poverty.