MSP to Rochester High Speed Rail

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
grant1simons2
IDS Center
Posts: 4371
Joined: February 8th, 2014, 11:33 pm
Location: Marcy-Holmes

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby grant1simons2 » July 31st, 2015, 9:28 am

North American High Speed Rail Group Chairman Joseph Wang formerly worked for China's Ministry of Commerce. The company's business plan states the Minnesota rail project would be "the first in the U.S. to leverage a relationship with China in the (high-speed rail) market."
:|

bubzki2
Foshay Tower
Posts: 811
Joined: September 19th, 2012, 5:38 pm
Location: Snelling-Hamline

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby bubzki2 » July 31st, 2015, 10:03 am

Terminus in ... Bloomington. Well, I won't look a gift horse in the mouth. If there is a horse.

phop
Landmark Center
Posts: 207
Joined: May 28th, 2013, 8:58 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby phop » July 31st, 2015, 10:05 am

Most likely outcome is that this private endeavor breaks down in a year or two and we're left back where we started. There's no way that the group is going to be able to raise multiple billions of dollars for this suspect plan. This almost feels consortium-level to me, but apparently there are actual people behind this? Boggles my mind.

EOst
Capella Tower
Posts: 2429
Joined: March 19th, 2014, 8:05 pm
Location: Saint Paul

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby EOst » July 31st, 2015, 10:09 am

Well, if anyone could pull together billions for a speculative high-speed rail project, it's probably a guy who used to work for the Chinese Ministry of Commerce.

phop
Landmark Center
Posts: 207
Joined: May 28th, 2013, 8:58 pm
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby phop » July 31st, 2015, 10:13 am

Maybe they have guarantees from the Saudi royal family or something. I know they've used the Mayo system before.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7760
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby mattaudio » July 31st, 2015, 10:23 am

So, the 494 ROW figures... we all knew Mayo wants HSR to terminate at MSP. The talk about US 63 and I-90 on the Roch end is particularily confusing. There's been talk of a RST terminus before, but that's usually been dismissed since RST wouldn't be able to support significant commercial aviation growth *even with* a HSR connection to MSP. And RST is on US 63 south of Rochester, but shy of I-90. Another thing: Air rights? They'd build this on stilts for the whole length? That seems highly unlikely. There are plenty of relatively straight and flat stretches of rural US 52 where I'm sure it would be much easier to build in the median at grade even if it involves slight movement of the mainlines.

User avatar
Tiller
Foshay Tower
Posts: 965
Joined: January 17th, 2015, 11:58 am

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby Tiller » July 31st, 2015, 10:24 am

Most likely outcome is that this private endeavor breaks down in a year or two and we're left back where we started. There's no way that the group is going to be able to raise multiple billions of dollars for this suspect plan. This almost feels consortium-level to me, but apparently there are actual people behind this? Boggles my mind.
The Chinese stock market has been collapsing and the Chinese government has been panicking to try and stop it. It's dropped by a third over the last month or so. Chinese investors want somewhere safe to put their money, and there's only so much federal debt they can buy. US infrastructure is something fairly safe to invest in. Just look at the Nicaraguan canal.

The actual plans sound iffy to me though. Especially 260-280 mph along the curvy freeway row.

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2754
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby mulad » July 31st, 2015, 4:02 pm

I'm really raising an eyebrow at the speed they're talking about. I think the only services that regularly hit 260+ mph are maglevs -- there are steel-wheeled trains that have gone a bit over 300 mph in special runs to set records, but that's well beyond what is done in regular service.

Just three trains per day would be pretty silly, especially considering the roughly 90-minute drive time between the Twin Cities and Rochester. The existing buses and airport shuttle services are much more frequent than that. Maybe they'd have three train sets? Three trips per hour?

The travel market for Rochester is small enough that even if we get HSR in some form, it would probably only make sense to run small trains, perhaps only 2-4 cars long depending on the length and capacity of the cars. I suppose that could potentially allow faster service -- the fastest TGV run so far was done with a shortened train. The super-high speed they're suggesting would probably need a flatter route, and at a certain point it just makes more sense to build a structure rather than do all the earthmoving.

I had gone through the studies along the Twin Cities to Chicago corridor a few years ago and assembled the cost projections and benefit/cost calculations where I could. There were only two cases where they essentially came out with a negative result, and the one of the two was an elevated maglev running at 250+ mph via Rochester.

So, in general, I think it makes the most sense to go about as fast as you can by still sticking to a ground-level system. As the amount of elevated track grows, it dramatically increases the cost. It might make sense to elevate almost the entire thing if we're really talking about a line to Chicago in the end, but I don't think these NAHSR folks have suggested that so far (and MnDOT's Zip Rail study is still explicitly a Twin Cities to Rochester project).

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby RailBaronYarr » August 6th, 2015, 12:28 pm

Not sure if anyone saw this report: http://www.gmfus.org/publications/makin ... california Jeff Wood did a podcast with the author as well. Some good lessons for us, including the fact that even in France and Germany, the average access to their HSR stations is 53/40% by car.

I liked the section discussing through-routing with suburban stations on each end (connecting to transit). An MSP Airport station may not be terrible if there's a way to get it to connect to either downtown (preferably Minneapolis) and be part of another service northbound (ex NLX). Especially since MSP would be have connections in the Blue Line, Riverview, and hopefully an American Blvd aBRT. I dunno, I'm coming around to the idea, but it would have to be done well.

mattaudio
Stone Arch Bridge
Posts: 7760
Joined: June 19th, 2012, 2:04 pm
Location: NORI: NOrth of RIchfield

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby mattaudio » August 6th, 2015, 12:47 pm

So, a large share of people get to European HSR stations by car. If that held for our metro, wouldn't that be a case for ZipRail's potential Dakota County stop (likely by US 52 and CSAH 52/Future Rerouted MN 55) rather than a stop at MSP Airport?

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby RailBaronYarr » August 6th, 2015, 1:17 pm

Sure. I'm not saying anything is a direct corollary to us. It would be weird to have an exurban stop (presumably for P&Rs) AND an airport stop AND a downtown stop AND another suburban stop on the northern side (like the Coon Rapids stop for NLX). OTOH, MSP does have transit access and will have more in the future. Coon Rapids/Dakota County Stop likely won't. Adding one additional stop in the mix -- assuming it doesn't completely blow up costs to get into downtown -- wouldn't add that much travel time (as the report notes, you've already slowed down to make other suburban stops). I guess I'm just saying I'm open to the idea. Like it matters :P

mulad
Moderator
Posts: 2754
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 6:30 pm
Location: Saint Paul
Contact:

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby mulad » August 6th, 2015, 3:20 pm

The NAHSRG folks have been saying privately that they'd want to extend the line to Chicago, according to emails and documents the Post Bulletin was able to get their hands on. But they sent a message in April saying they could start construction on stations by the end of this year and the main rail line next year? That's a wildly optimistic timetable -- even a private project of this scope would need to go through a pretty hefty environmental review, right?

Anyway, regarding station placement -- mattaudio, do you have some good information on how many HSR passengers in Europe use cars to reach stations? I listened to the Talking Headways podcast and was fairly happy to hear how stations placed in "activity centers" were considered to be much more successful than stations out in far-flung suburban or rural locations. The need for parking is inherently pretty limiting.

I'm often surprised looking up the numbers for different park-and-ride locations -- 28th Avenue station on the Blue Line has 1,443 spaces in its ramp, so it could only contribute a modest percentage to the total ridership on the light-rail line. It averaged 925 boardings per weekday last year, so it probably isn't getting used all that heavily. Of course, the Mall of America just next door is a major destination and transfer point which does much better (2,164 average weekday boardings), but ridership there lags significantly behind what you get for downtown St. Paul, downtown Minneapolis, or the University of Minnesota.

I'm still not a big fan of having the line run to the airport either. Only the Blue Line and route 54 go there today, and it seems like the parking fills up pretty often these days. Terminal 1 had the second-highest ridership (2,866) of any station on the Blue Line, after Nicollet Mall (2,944), but that number is inflated by the folks shuttling from there to Terminal 2.

So whatever sort of service we end up with, I'd still highly prefer to see it reach at least one of the downtowns.

RailBaronYarr
Capella Tower
Posts: 2625
Joined: September 16th, 2012, 4:31 pm

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby RailBaronYarr » August 6th, 2015, 3:40 pm

Hmmm, I thought that report (the one discussed in the podcast) was listing mode share of rail arrivals (on page 47 of the pdf), but that was just city-wide modal split.

bubzki2
Foshay Tower
Posts: 811
Joined: September 19th, 2012, 5:38 pm
Location: Snelling-Hamline

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby bubzki2 » August 6th, 2015, 3:43 pm

Post Bulletin - Private rail group's goals include link to Chicago

http://www.postbulletin.com/news/local/ ... 15dc1.html

User avatar
Nick
Capella Tower
Posts: 2729
Joined: May 30th, 2012, 9:33 pm
Location: Downtown, Minneapolis

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby Nick » August 6th, 2015, 3:55 pm

This continues to just seem like the weirdest situation. I guess now that the Chinese stock market is in the toilet it makes a little more sense that they're looking for safe places to put money, but still, just bizarre.
Nick Magrino
[email protected]

Silophant
Moderator
Posts: 4486
Joined: June 20th, 2012, 4:33 pm
Location: Whimsical NE

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby Silophant » August 6th, 2015, 4:05 pm

I'm getting a Mars One vibe from everything they put out. Like, just everything is full of giant glaring holes.
Joey Senkyr
[email protected]

Mcgizz
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 142
Joined: December 2nd, 2014, 11:08 pm

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby Mcgizz » August 6th, 2015, 4:22 pm

Terminal 1 had the second-highest ridership (2,866) of any station on the Blue Line, after Nicollet Mall (2,944), but that number is inflated by the folks shuttling from there to Terminal 2.
How does Metro Transit measure those boarding numbers? Scans and paper ticket sales averaged? Or number of people they count boarding some other way?

PigsEye

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby PigsEye » August 6th, 2015, 5:17 pm

Terminal 1 had the second-highest ridership (2,866) of any station on the Blue Line, after Nicollet Mall (2,944), but that number is inflated by the folks shuttling from there to Terminal 2.
How does Metro Transit measure those boarding numbers? Scans and paper ticket sales averaged? Or number of people they count boarding some other way?

I always assumed they never counted the riders who shuttle from terminal to terminal considering it's free. Is that correct? Do they not count the free riders as transit riders?

Tcmetro
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1777
Joined: May 31st, 2012, 8:02 pm
Location: Chicago (ex-Minneapolitan)

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby Tcmetro » August 6th, 2015, 7:24 pm

I believe that buses and trains are equipped with automatic passenger counters that record all boardings and deboardings.

http://www.transitwiki.org/TransitWiki/ ... er_Counter

Mcgizz
Nicollet Mall
Posts: 142
Joined: December 2nd, 2014, 11:08 pm

Re: Zip Rail and NAHSRG Rail to Rochester

Postby Mcgizz » August 6th, 2015, 7:50 pm

That's cool. It would be nice to know if that number for Terminal 1 and Terminal 2 boardings include the free rides.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BBMplsMN, mamundsen and 4 guests