Red Line (Cedar Avenue BRT)

[Nick]

Probably. And worth noting that the average car/light vehicle costs $31,252 and lasts 11.4 years, which works out to $7.51 per day, without including operating expenses, the cost of the road surface, and the cost of the land that the vehicle parks on (assuming there are about 4 parking spaces per car, that probably runs a minimum of $10 to $20 per day by itself).

Well, then considering anyone actually taking this from Eagan both own a car and take this, than that's even sillier.

[Mdcastle]

How do people think things would have worked out as far as ridership and costs if instead of having a designated "line", there were commuter coaches from the Park and Rides directly to the downtowns like some other cities are doing?

[Tcmetro]

There are commuter coaches going from the lots to downtown; 475 from Apple Valley and Cedar Grove to Downtown and U of M, 476 from Palomino Hills, 477 from Apple Valley and Lakeville, etc.

The Red Line is an additional service that replaced the 442 local service from Mall of America to Apple Valley.

[Mdcastle]

Shows how little I know about the bus system I guess. Maybe that explains the low ridership on the Red Line, if you're going to ride a bus why not take it all the way do your destination rather than transferring to the Mall of America. Maybe the coaches could have made one stop their on the way to downtown to drop of Mall Employees and shoppers..

[talindsay]

Shows how little I know about the bus system I guess. Maybe that explains the low ridership on the Red Line, if you're going to ride a bus why not take it all the way do your destination rather than transferring to the Mall of America. Maybe the coaches could have made one stop their on the way to downtown to drop of Mall Employees and shoppers..

Winner winner chicken dinner!

The problem here is that they really *wanted* to extend the Blue Line south across the river way back when it was being discussed, but ridership south of the MOA is *much* too low to just the bridge improvements for a light rail extension. This is designed as though it were an *extension* to the light rail, but since it's a different mode there's no good way to handle the transfer. Also worth noting is that it would take *way* longer to get from Apple Valley to downtown using this line in combination with the blue line than it would to just take one of the many commuter coaches; and at other times of the day there isn't enough traffic to take the bus at all, given that everybody out there owns a car and they can drive it in a quarter the time off peak.

I think the real lesson is that commuter coaches are the only reasonable transit mode for distances this great. If ridership were concentrated and heavy enough then commuter rail *might* make sense, but this kind of "like light rail" service doesn't.

[Tcmetro]

The idea is that during off-peak hours there are less riders to the core, and more disperse destinations, so that the local service provides a better match to customers (i.e. a 15-minute trunk line, with connections to other trunk lines, versus hourly point-to-point routes).

Ridership is highest during peak hours on both the express service and the Red Line. Operating express service via the Mall of America would represent a significant decrease in usability for downtown riders, who are already filling the buses. Red Line is more about making local connections to the Airport, Bloomington, S Mpls, St. Paul rather than providing a connection to the Blue Line for downtown Minneapolis riders.

If you have more interest in the routings and times for the express buses as well as the local buses that connect to the Red Line on the south side of the river, I would point you to the MVTA bus schedule page:

http://www.mvta.com/bus_route_information_2.html
http://www.mvta.com/System_Map2.html

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I disagree with the notion that the Red Line is doomed to failure for eternity. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge critic of the project for actually doing very little for transit riders, but the increased service is wonderful. The problem is the connecting network is barebones. Connecting buses need to run later into the evening, and at higher frequencies. It could take a while for the network to mature, but it is certainly worth the effort. Adding stops at Cliff Road, Palomino Hills, and in Lakeville would do wonders for the line, providing access to commercial and high density areas that are already adjacent to the corridor.

[QuietBlue]

I'm sure there will be quite a surge in use between MOA and Cedar Grove at least once the new mall opens this summer. That area is going to end up being pretty densely developed between what is there now, what's being built, and what will likely follow in the coming years.

I've taken the Red Line a couple of times, as I live within walking distance of the Cedar Grove station, and I don't see the time it takes for the bus to get on and off 77 as being much of an issue, honestly. Plus, with the time needed to walk up to a skyway, all the way across the highway, and back down again, it's not going to be that big of a time savings for passengers. As such, this station improvement doesn't seem necessary.

But I take serious issue with the idea that everyone in the suburbs owns a car, because that's just not true at all, and becoming less true every year.

[talindsay]

But I take serious issue with the idea that everyone in the suburbs owns a car, because that's just not true at all, and becoming less true every year.

There's plenty of people in inner suburbs who don't have cars - Richfield, Brooklyn Center, Golden Valley, Roseville, Maplewood, St. Louis Park. But south of the river? I can't imagine there are many zero-car households south of the Minnesota River.

[FISHMANPET]

If you live car free south of the river you're probably crazy or live in crushing poverty, in which case it's gonna take way more than fake BRT to pull you out.

What galls me about the Red Line is that it doesn't even qualify for Metro Transit's Hi-Frequency network. The METRO brand is supposed to mean something, like among other things frequency. But it doesn't even meet Metro Transit's generous definition of frequent service.

[Tcmetro]

There are quite a few no-car, low-income households south of the river. Take the 444 bus to see, which is probably the busiest local bus line in the area.

[talindsay]

There are quite a few no-car, low-income households south of the river. Take the 444 bus to see, which is probably the busiest local bus line in the area.

Wow, that's disappointing - I can't imagine how impossible it would be to eke out a living down there without a car.

[FranklinAveFixation]

There are quite a few no-car, low-income households south of the river. Take the 444 bus to see, which is probably the busiest local bus line in the area.

Wow, that's disappointing - I can't imagine how impossible it would be to eke out a living down there without a car.

Yep, we're talking 2-3 hours of commuting each day for many.

What galls me about the Red Line is that it doesn't even qualify for Metro Transit's Hi-Frequency network. The METRO brand is supposed to mean something, like among other things frequency. But it doesn't even meet Metro Transit's generous definition of frequent service.

This is what kills me too. I live in MPLS & work in Eagan, and my job involves working many evening or overnight shifts. Connecting from the Red Line to the 445 at Cedar Grove in the evening means a 20+ minute wait to make the transfer.

I'm sure there will be quite a surge in use between MOA and Cedar Grove at least once the new mall opens this summer. That area is going to end up being pretty densely developed between what is there now, what's being built, and what will likely follow in the coming years.

While it will undoubtedly increase ridership, I don't see a lot of this mall's customers using this subpar bus service to shop (maybe as a novelty/one-off). Remember, when most people go shopping, evenings/weekends, the Redline will only be running every 30 minutes. Likely that surge will be solely employees of the new mall.

I feel the only winners in the Redline creation are the few who live close in to the Apple Valley stations, every one else in Eagan and Apple Valley were better off before Redline came about.

[Tcmetro]

There is a very good report available from the Metropolitan Council about public transit and the disadvantaged (low-income, disabled, senior, without a vehicle) population. It shows large amount of these groups living in Eagan, Apple Valley, and especially Burnsville.

http://metrocouncil.org/Transportation/ ... ion-C.aspx

I used to live in the Burnsville area without a car, mainly because my mother had a disability restricting her driving. This meant 1+ hours traveling to high school (I went out of district) and limiting in job finding and general shopping. Unfortunately, it is a problem that isn't addressed well by the transit operators, who don't invest a lot of money into suburban local bus operations (instead focusing on park and rides and peak express service.) A lot of communities have it even worse. Take a look at Eden Prairie for example; a lot of low-income households with no car, and a transit service that basically ignores the needs of those who need it most. Eden Prairie has an express bus station, with ample parking, but local bus service is limited to a peak hour circulator (6 trips per day), and a reverse commute express route (also 6 trips per day.) Southwest Transit has shown little to no interest in providing service to these people, instead adding service to low-impact, low-ridership crosstown express routes, and gold-plated investments at new park and ride facilities. What is especially appalling to me is the fact that Southwest Transit refuses to address the disadvantage constituents, and instead provides special service to Twins, Vikings, and Gopher games, Holidazzle, State Fair, and Como Zoo service, and a Saturday service in the holidays to the Mall of America to provide service to people who don't want to deal with the hassle of peak shopping parking.

Essentially these are the motivations for my support of improving local suburban bus access. They allow the disadvantaged who have to live in the suburbs (a lot of senior and low-income housing is spread across the region due to Metropolitan Council policies) to have access to jobs, schools, medical facilities, etc. Unfortunately, the powers that be are more than willing to provide the housing options to the disadvantaged, but not the transportation options. This culminates in a problem where it is very difficult to break the cycle of poverty and isolation, simply because mobility is extremely lacking for those living on the edges of society in the suburbs.

Projects like the Red and Orange Lines and the Southwest and Bottineau lines help with addressing this issue, but they fail in providing last mile options. How are riders supposed to get to the Red Line or any of the other lines without adequate feeder buses. The local bus network surrounding the Red Line are essentially static to pre-implementation; so that the only riders that benefit are the very few households that are within walking distance of a station. Whereas, significant expansions to the local bus network have been provided for the Green Line, the same investments have not been made in the Red Line corridor, nor do I suspect they will in any of the future transit extensions.

[mattaudio]

The problem is that the "last mile" in these suburbs is just not compatible with a lifestyle that's not auto-dependent. I'm not sure the most efficient way to address this problem is to try and shoehorn transit into a land use that gives the finger to it.

[David Greene]

Southwest Transit has shown little to no interest in providing service to these people

Case #1 for eliminating the opt outs.

[Tcmetro]

Metropolitan Council Transportation Committee recommends new Cedar Grove Freeway Station and a northbound managed lane on Highway 77 as well as a third lane northbound from County Road 38 to Diffley Road. No funds identified.

http://metrocouncil.org/Council-Meeting ... 14_31.aspx

[mulad]

Open house for the Cedar Grove transit station connection and the managed lane project for MN-77 itself.

Wednesday, March 19
4:30 p.m. to 6:30 p.m.
Eagan City Hall -- Eagan Room
3830 Pilot Knob Road
Eagan, MN

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/metro/news/14/03/6hwy77.html

[Tcmetro]

CMAQ funds are being seeked for the Cedar Grove Freeway Station. If funding is secured the project should be opened in mid-2016.

http://www.co.dakota.mn.us/Government/P ... packet.pdf Page 23

[mulad]

I went down to the Cedar Grove stop last Friday, since I was bored enough to check on the progress of the outlet mall. I was pretty surprised by the number of buses going to and from the station -- I'm doing some analysis of the Metro Transit and MVTA feeds to Google (GTFS), and right now it's showing up as having 1,958 buses stopping there each day, which puts it as the busiest single data point in the whole metro area. Cedar Grove really should be divided into at least 2 gates since the Red Line has a dedicated platform, but that only accounts for about 130 stops per weekday.

Places like the MOA are busier on the whole -- I tried adding up the Metro Transit and MVTA numbers and got 3,608 there -- but they're divided up into multiple gates or platforms. Each gate of the Marq2 facility in downtown Minneapolis appears to get between 400 and 700 buses per day, but in aggregate, Marquette and 2nd each see around 2,300 buses per day.

Anyway, I may have said it before, but I've realized that upgrading the Cedar Grove station will benefit several routes, not just the relatively infrequent Red Line buses, making an investment here a much more reasonable idea. Seeing the number of buses that went through actually made me begin to think that the older "offline T" option may have been a much smarter idea than I originally thought, since the station could allow many routes to transition between freeway-running and street-running. But they appear to be going with a centerline station similar to the one on I-35W at 46th Street, accessed by a dedicated pedestrian bridge -- that's still fine (though I still wish they'd extend something across the highway and also allow easier access for the neighborhood to the west).

[Tcmetro]

I doubt that there's 1,958 buses stopping at Cedar Grove per day. There's maybe 200 trips on the Red Line, 100 trips on the 444, 40 trips on the 445, 40 trips on the 440, 30 trips on the 438, 10 trips on the 437, 5 trips on the 491/492, 20 trips on the 475, and just a handful on the 477.

I do agree that there should be gates at CGTS, but the geometry of the station doesn't really allow that.