urbanMSP

I'm not sure why we need the "support" of anyone else to do it. I mean, if I want to tax myself, why should they care? It would easily fit into a narrative of how awful the cities are they need to raise taxes so high to get anything done etc etc. Anyone outside of the county making a stink could easily be painted as being petty and vindictive against the core. You could even buy into the Outstate narrative and say "Sure, we milked the whole state for the benefit of the core, and you guys called us on it, and the jig is up, but we'd like to continue these programs but pay for them ourselves." (Not that I think it's the case, but it's the narrative that was sold).

I'm not sure why we need the "support" of anyone else to do it. I mean, if I want to tax myself,

State law. And that ain't gonna change any time soon.

If you think the real decision-makers actually believe their rhetoric about the core leaching off the rest of the state, you've got another think coming.

My assumption is that Anoka County cannot leave, as much as their elected officials would like to, due to their Northstar obligation. They'd basically be a harmless observer to a more focused Hennepin-Ramsey coalition. Their votes wouldn't matter much.

But does state law say non-core legislators can be needlessly petty? I mean yes they need to vote on it, but what's a reasonable non-petty reason for them to vote no?

And I don't think anyone believes that rhetoric, which is why calling them on it seems like such a good move, because it exposes the hypocrisy.

But does state law say non-core legislators can be needlessly petty? I mean yes they need to vote on it, but what's a reasonable non-petty reason for them to vote no?

Removing Hennepin and Ramsey from LGA entirely would be the death knell to many an exurban and especially rurual legislator. They would vote no because it's in their self-interest to do so. The reason the counties can't raise their own sales tax is that the sales taxes go to LGA. Raise a sales tax and everyone else wants a piece. Only dismantling LGA would change that and no one wants that to happen except the core cities and some suburbs.

And I don't think anyone believes that rhetoric, which is why calling them on it seems like such a good move, because it exposes the hypocrisy.

To what end? People already know politicians are hypocrites. People don't care about that, they care about their own skin.

My assumption is that Anoka County cannot leave, as much as their elected officials would like to, due to their Northstar obligation. They'd basically be a harmless observer to a more focused Hennepin-Ramsey coalition. Their votes wouldn't matter much.

Does that obligation exist in perpetuity due to operations funding?

Is it really a big deal if Washington, Dakota, and Anoka want to tax themselves for better transit? AFAIK, Dakota is pretty supportive of CTIB and transit in general, and Washington has been pushing the Gateway and Red Rock corridors along. Although these corridors are not as successful in providing the ridership numbers that lines like Midtown would, they are still have their merit, and are attempting to make a mode shift in suburban communities to transit.

If the suburban counties are left out on transit, I think it will make a larger rift between the outer suburbs and the inner areas, and I would imagine that the end product will be something akin to the paradigm in Atlanta, which as we all know has significant issues regarding regional politics.

Additionally, a Ramsey-Hennepin only transit funding board will not necessarily have the desired outcomes. More lines serving the inner city are unlikely to be built at the whims of the entire county, who will still have a more regional vision. Additionally when we are talking about the SW and Bottineau lines, we should remember that both will cost in excess of $1 billion. If we went along the 3C route would we be talking about a $2.5 billion line? If Bottineau went through North Minneapolis would it cost $1.5 billion? There are significant issues with what can and can't be built and those are dependent on the taxing capacity.

I don't want to get all scorched-earth when it comes to the future of the suburbs since we know where that discussion leads, so here's my more reasoned response: While it may be worthwhile to invest in corridors like the Red Line, Gateway, Red Rock, etc to try and create a mode shift in our metro..... Does that really have more value per dollar than serving existing underserved transit corridors in existing high-demand urban neighborhoods? We don't really need our transit to compete with cars anymore - transit designed for that purpose usually fails to compete effectively, and now people want urban living with good urban transit. The paradigm has shifted, and core investments are now more valuable than ever.

But does state law say non-core legislators can be needlessly petty? I mean yes they need to vote on it, but what's a reasonable non-petty reason for them to vote no?

Removing Hennepin and Ramsey from LGA entirely would be the death knell to many an exurban and especially rurual legislator. They would vote no because it's in their self-interest to do so. The reason the counties can't raise their own sales tax is that the sales taxes go to LGA. Raise a sales tax and everyone else wants a piece. Only dismantling LGA would change that and no one wants that to happen except the core cities and some suburbs.

Maybe I'm confused then? Why would levying an additional sales tax in Hennepin and Ramsey counties involve removing those counties from LGA?

But does state law say non-core legislators can be needlessly petty? I mean yes they need to vote on it, but what's a reasonable non-petty reason for them to vote no?

Removing Hennepin and Ramsey from LGA entirely would be the death knell to many an exurban and especially rurual legislator. They would vote no because it's in their self-interest to do so. The reason the counties can't raise their own sales tax is that the sales taxes go to LGA. Raise a sales tax and everyone else wants a piece. Only dismantling LGA would change that and no one wants that to happen except the core cities and some suburbs.

Maybe I'm confused then? Why would levying an additional sales tax in Hennepin and Ramsey counties involve removing those counties from LGA?

You need legislative approval to levy a tax. You need that approval because of LGA. Said approval is much harder to get when most will not see any benefit.

It's certainly possible to get legislative approval but given the urban/rural divide in the legislature, good luck. At the very least you will need to trade road expansion and gas tax ain't gonna be the way to do it (think shifting around road money and flex funds).

Exurban/Outstate legislators oppose allowing the metro to increase sales taxes because they come here to see sportsball games, stay in our hotels, and shop at MOA once/year.

Sadly, I'm not kidding. This is the legitimate basis for their opposition to allowing the metro to tax itself (aside from any underlying anti-tax beliefs they may hold).

Before we get too far into politics, can we all at least acknowledge how much better we are at this than Wisconsin? Seriously, have you seen their new DOT plan? $500 million fee increase, $500 million in new debt, and $500 million taken from the school fund. And then they are still half a million short of the 2.1 billion needed to rebuild a single interchange.

Oh Red Line discussion and/or updates - where art thou?
I love all this discussion around CTIB, LGA, Legislature, etc. - but can it be moved?

In regards to the Red Line, I'm interested to see new ridership numbers. I try to make a mental note to watch the buses as they come in and out of MOA while I'm waiting for my bus or my train. Oftentimes I see the bus quite full.

Ridership graphic enclosed here:
http://www.mnrides.org/sites/default/fi ... _final.pdf

Looks like the last few reported months have exceed expectation. My guess is due to the new outlet mall.

Red Line is going through the Implementation Plan Update (IPU) process now. Service options are being looked into and potentially finalized in January or February. Additional capital project will be looked into, including:

- New stations at Cliff Road and Palomino Dr.
- Extension to the Lakeville Cedar (179th St) park and ride with stops at 161st and Glacier Way.
- Extension to 215th St with stop at 195th St.

At the most recent MVTA board meeting a motion was approved to pursue a CMAQ grant for additional decks on the Apple Valley Station parking ramp. Addtionally, the new layover facility at AVTS is well underway.

http://www.co.dakota.mn.us/Government/P ... packet.pdf

As for service levels, I hope that a Red Line Express (i.e. AVTS-Minneapolis, bypassing MOA) can be added at half-hourly to hourly frequencies to attract more riders, and a more comprehensive restructure of MVTA local routes with introduction of more midday express service.

Red Line Express is the 477 to AVTS. Buses leave as fast as people can enter them during the morning commute. A non-peak 477, other than maybe some mid-day enhancements, would dilute the purpose of the Red Line.

Obligatory "this is why the Red Line should interline with the Orange and go downtown" comment.

I suppose what I meant was more of a service that makes all the stops that the Red Line does (AVTS, 147, 140, CGTS) as well as the new stops at Cliff, Palomino, and in Lakeville, then 35W/46th and 35W/Lake. Direct service to the core from Cedar Ave is much more attractive than transferring to the Blue Line.

Ah, I agree "the Red Line should interline with the Orange and go downtown" but I guess that's been hashed out much earlier in the thread.

How would they build the proposed Cliff and Palomino stations? There's the existing shelter by Christus Victor for the Palomino stop, but there you get a similar issue with the current Cedar Grove station in that it will take extra time to leave and get back on Cedar. Also, the exit ramps to and from McAndrews seem like they would get in the way of stations directly on Cedar. And with Cliff, do they plan to build a station in the middle of the highway, like the addition to the Cedar Grove station?