urbanMSP

So how do you get into the parking ramp that is below the Light rail line that's entrance is on Park??

Technically the Armory faces 6th.

I think that reference was to the parking ramp between Park and Chicago under the DTE LRT station. My guess is that when this is excavated for the park and Park Ave is removed, they will turn the portal to meet 4th St S.

Speaking of the Armory access on 5th, though, I'd like to see us move towards removing curb cuts/access on 5th St east of Government Center station, so eventually that street can become more of a public plaza. With this park proposal, it should at least be a no brainer to remove the lane on the north side of the tracks that goes to 5th Ave S and takes a right turn. Instead, I'd like to see a two-way 6th Street boulevard design east of 5th Ave.

Uhh.. they revamped the graphic (not sure if it was the Strib or Ryan Cos) to include the new stadium rendering: http://www.startribune.com/newsgraphics/207414721.html

The style of these projects really don't mesh at all. I wonder if Ryan will consider modernizing their design now that they know what the stadium will look like. And I share the amusement regarding the window placement. It's going to be an amazing view of whatever gets built at park and 5th. Ha.

And cynic sean has really turned me firmly in the negative on this. I already hated the huge ramp on Chicago and am not a big fan of the 2 block long office wall. What I loved was the park concept. But, as he brings up, this is a park surrounded by a jail, juvy, a morgue, and a stadium. Is there any way this will actually work?

Maybe as this neighborhood becomes more valuable and existing facilities age, the city and county will see it fit to move their armpit land uses to another part of town. Maybe we could free up some space in Medina for the jail and juvy by moving the County DOT downtown. Win win.

My bro-in-law said the mayor of Brooklyn Park stated that if the Bottineau line gets funded as planned, Wells Fargo will be moving there in to a new facility, not here. Sounds like the whole development hinges on Ryan securing WF for the 2 towers. Yet another reason building $1B LRT lines out to corn fields is a bad idea when we have existing infrastructure surrounding blighted land use that a private developer is willing to build on.

So how do you get into the parking ramp that is below the Light rail line that's entrance is on Park??

Technically the Armory faces 6th.

I think that reference was to the parking ramp between Park and Chicago under the DTE LRT station....

Woops, wrong quotation. nevermind.

Because the Armory faces the park it has so much potential especially for a farmers market which has been discussed.

I too wonder why they are not proposing any parking garage(s) under the park. They have two whole blocks to work with, so it wouldn't have to be as many levels as the above-ground ramp they are proposing.

Wedgeguy - You are right, the only entrance/exit to the existing parking ramp under/adjacent to the LRT station is on Park. Not sure how that's going to work.

Also, I thought that ramp was built with the idea that a building could go on top of it. Are we not doing that anymore because it would block views to/from the stadium? I still hope something happens on that space, even if it's a City-owned park building or other public facility.

A few months ago, when it leaked that Park & Portland could be closed off for a "plaza", I had the same skeptical reaction as many of you. Now that I see it how it would all work, I don't think it really matters that much. Why do Park & Portland need to connect to Washington anyways? Just so Hennepin County's roads can be connected? North of the park, Portland and Park can be converted to two-ways, like they already are north of Washington. As long as bike/ped traffic can proceed through the park in a smooth manner, I don't see a problem.

Hey, I found this updated rendering of the park surrounding the stadium-



So the world largest doors will face HCMC instead of the park?

hehe...

wait..that's snark...not allowed! lol

Maybe as this neighborhood becomes more valuable and existing facilities age, the city and county will see it fit to move their armpit land uses to another part of town.

I was wondering about this also. I have no idea about the life cycle stage of these buildings, but I could imagine a scenario where the land would be valuable enough for the county to come out ahead by selling to developers.

The hard part would be finding a new home for these 'armpit land uses.' Not too many neighborhoods would welcome the County Morgue, Jail, or the Juvenile Detention Center. And frankly, it makes sense for these facilities to be near HCMC, the courthouse, and other county services.

Also, it would be difficult to move People Serving People, Hennepin County Health Care for the Homeless, Catholic Charities, House of Charity, and RS Eden. It's almost as if this parking lot wasteland was serving important purposes the whole time.

Well it's a good thing there's many surface lots to develop. Folks will just have to build around the uncouth uses. They've managed to build a lot of luxury condos and apartments in the N. Washington strip club district...

Nice pic of the U of M alumni center

Now that I see it how it would all work, I don't think it really matters that much. Why do Park & Portland need to connect to Washington anyways? Just so Hennepin County's roads can be connected? North of the park, Portland and Park can be converted to two-ways, like they already are north of Washington. As long as bike/ped traffic can proceed through the park in a smooth manner, I don't see a problem.

It doesn't really bother me that much to lose these particular streets, but the cumulative effect of the park and the stadium would be, if I'm understanding the plans, that we're severing every N-S connection between 5th and 11th. That seems like too much. I too would like to see an option where the streets are "convertible", such that they remain open as streets most of the time (perhaps curbless streets well integrated into the adjacent parks), but can be closed down on an as-needed basis (weekends, game days, special events).

It looks like Chicago Ave is staying.

What if Portland and Park both went two-way, and were built through the park as single lanes in each direction? Perhaps very narrow lanes with a wide median between the two, like a parkway, and with well-marked midblock crosswalks? Maybe that could keep connectivity while making the streets unintimidating, even during rush hour.

Also just noticing that the big, retractable doors on the stadium aren't going to open up into the park, they're on the south side of the structure, across from what I'm pretty sure is the county morgue. It's both hard and easy to believe the two groups didn't do much collaborating when putting their designs together...

I don't think that's right, Nick. It looks to me that the big doors are centered just slightly north of the 5th Street alignment, and the big prism element at the peak of the roof looks to be centered on these blocks (between 5th and 4th street). Look at image 4 here, realizing that they botched the rendering and what they show as 4th Street is actually 5th Street. And then take everything with a grain of salt.

What if Portland and Park both went two-way, and were built through the park as single lanes in each direction? Perhaps very narrow lanes with a wide median between the two, like a parkway, and with well-marked midblock crosswalks? Maybe that could keep connectivity while making the streets unintimidating, even during rush hour.

Yes! Do a curbless space with bollards and planters to slow traffic.

What if Portland and Park both went two-way, and were built through the park as single lanes in each direction? Perhaps very narrow lanes with a wide median between the two, like a parkway, and with well-marked midblock crosswalks? Maybe that could keep connectivity while making the streets unintimidating, even during rush hour.

Even crazier, what if Park and Portland dug down under the LRT tracks and drove below the park, with access to parking that stretched under the 2 blocks of the park as well as the existing parking under the station? Too crazy?

What if Portland and Park both went two-way, and were built through the park as single lanes in each direction? Perhaps very narrow lanes with a wide median between the two, like a parkway, and with well-marked midblock crosswalks? Maybe that could keep connectivity while making the streets unintimidating, even during rush hour.

Even crazier, what if Park and Portland dug down under the LRT tracks and drove below the park, with access to parking that stretched under the 2 blocks of the park as well as the existing parking under the station? Too crazy?

Not a bad idea. Perhaps do something like this where one lane dips down to the parking and crosses to the other side and the other lane intersects with 5th and 4th.

Not a bad idea. Perhaps do something like this where one lane dips down to the parking and crosses to the other side and the other lane intersects with 5th and 4th.

That was exactly my thought. It might make Matt's long-term vision for the cut/cover for rail a little tougher. Tough options to weigh out. I don't particularly care about the severed connection of Park/Portland if it's for a great public park (and not some giant monstrous parking garage or something), but on the flip side if doing this can allow for the parking we're all clamoring for to go underground and keep the 1.5 blocks of ramps open for better development, I'm ALL for it.

It would be nice if the jail would just disappear so there'd be a four block park with city hall at the other end instead of a fortress, but since they just built it that's unfortunately not going to happen. There was discussion about putting the jail at Fort Snelling which would avoid the NIMBY problem, but they elected to build downtown because of the cost of transporting prisoners.

There was discussion about putting the jail at Fort Snelling which would avoid the NIMBY problem, but they elected to build downtown because of the cost of transporting prisoners.

How expensive are prisoners to transport!? Is it more or less than the tax value they could be bringing in from private development on that site? If it's more, is the difference worth it to re-activate areas of downtown? Why not also move the court to Fort Snelling if it's such a big deal?