Embassy Suites (Plymouth Building) - 12 6th Street S

[John]

I think this market needs the market rate 350-400 sq ft studio. It's a totally valid option for the single downtown worker. If I was single, I'd rather live in an updated super small studio in an awesome building vs a comparably priced one bedroom in a place like Rivergate.

We will see, but I'm a little skeptical. That does work in Manhattan, but most people who grew up in the midwest are used to living in larger spaces at much cheaper prices. I'm not sure it will fly. If I were the developer, I'd stick with a 500 -600 square feet floor plan for a studio apt.

[mnmike]

I don't know...I have a friend paying $1100 for a 450 square foot studio now, and a friend that paid 85k to buy a studio that size 5 years ago(turned out to not be the best investment). 400 square feet isn't as small as you think.

[go4guy]

I don't know...I have a friend paying $1100 for a 450 square foot studio now, and a friend that paid 85k to buy a studio that size 5 years ago(turned out to not be the best investment). 400 square feet isn't as small as you think.

Plus, most of these people are fresh out of college. Kinda use to small spaces.

[RailBaronYarr]

So how do you convince a married couple to live in 400 sqft? Or a couple with a dog? Or a couple with 1-2 kids to live in 1,000 sqft, especially if it's as expensive as a 2,300 sqft home 10-12 miles away?

Also, I'm all about downsizing, but 20x20 is 20x20 no matter how you cut it.

[mnmike]

Um, you don't. Those spaces are pretty much for singles.

Also, the two people I mentioned earlier are both 32 years old. Again, 400 square feet is bigger than you think. Go to IKEA and look at the 400 sq foot mock ups they have. Isn't as bad as you think. For couples and couples with kids, they will need bigger.
That isn't the market the studios are geared towards.

You mentioned 1,000 square feet...pretty sure that wouldn't be too bad at all for a couple with a child. I know people with 3 bedroom houses just under 1,000 square feet.

Any way you look at it, not sure what the argument here is? There is plenty a market for small studios downtown, they will fill up just fine.

[FISHMANPET]

My wife and I have a 1000 sq ft 2 bedroom apartment, we could pretty easily put a kid in the second bedroom. It certainly is a different way of living than in a suburban house. Our apartment is kind of jam packed with furniture, way more than you'd have in a large house, but I don't really need all that empty space anyway.

[mulad]

There are good ways and bad ways to do small units. I had a 1-bedroom apartment which was somewhere south of 450 sf just after college, and I had looked at some Ikea solutions for reclaiming space, but I kept on having problems with stuff along the walls conflicting with the type of storage options they have. I had a traditional American closet which seemed to be occupying the ideal space for my bed. It was also a corner apartment, which seemed great at first, but the windows block your ability to butt stuff up against the walls (my living room area occupied the corner).

I was glad to get out of there, but I didn't have it nearly as bad as my musician friend who lived two floors up with his girlfriend and their cat in a unit the same size.

I tend to think that somewhere around 750 sf is a decent sweet spot. I'm in a place that's 900-1000 sf now, and it's bigger than I really need (though I'm eternally single).

[twincitizen]

I concur...layout matters. I live in a 24.5x24.5 box (600sf) and the space is used very effectively. Every room feels like its own space and I have room for a huge dining room table as well as a full living room set. My previous apartment was longer and narrower and did not make good use of the space. For a smaller apartment, the kitchen was too large (but not big enough for a table) so a bunch of space was wasted. I think I must've looked at every floor plan for Buzza and I was not impressed. Obviously they were limited by the floorplates in what they could do, but lots of long skinny units with a single window on one end...no thanks!

[John]

Twincitizen, I think your square layout with 600 square feet is an ideal studio. With that configuration, you can really utilize all the space better rather than a narrow layout. 600 square feet gives you some elbow room. Not such a feeling of being cramped.
Mnmike, I do agree there is a market for studio apartments. I think if the Plymouth Building designs them well, they will do just fine. But read Twincitizen's comments above. I suspect he is the demographic they are marketing towards. In a few years, there is going to be fierce competition. With many options available, I doubt most people are going to opt to live like a sardine.

[RailBaronYarr]

Um, you don't. Those spaces are pretty much for singles.

Also, the two people I mentioned earlier are both 32 years old. Again, 400 square feet is bigger than you think. Go to IKEA and look at the 400 sq foot mock ups they have. Isn't as bad as you think. For couples and couples with kids, they will need bigger.
That isn't the market the studios are geared towards.

You mentioned 1,000 square feet...pretty sure that wouldn't be too bad at all for a couple with a child. I know people with 3 bedroom houses just under 1,000 square feet.

Any way you look at it, not sure what the argument here is? There is plenty a market for small studios downtown, they will fill up just fine.

My argument here is that there is nothing in between the small apartment/studio or small condos going up and single family homes. Almost zero 1,000-1,300 sqft 3 BR flats, row homes, etc near the city center. This dichotemy of big homes still being built in the suburbs (to say nothing of the existing stock as close in as, well, the Wedge, but StLP is a good example), and the ultra-small stuff in the city makes for an easy transition to suburbia when the singles get married and want a family. There's nothing incremental between.

As for the 1,000 sqft units that do exist, for most people, the cost is unreachable. That was my point in comparing to the 1,000-1,200 sqft homes within even 3-5 miles. Not to say that 1,000 isn't enough for a family of 3-4. It totally is. But when a 2 BR 1 BA condo with one parking spot in or near downtown costs anywhere from 165k to 350k, most people won't be able to afford living there (let alone the people who want a second bath and maybe a 3rd BR who would pay even more).

Just because small 1-2 BR units will fill up just fine with a bunch of young single people doesn't mean it's the best thing for making MSP more urban. If families can't afford to live close, they won't.

[min-chi-cbus]

I sort of agree with RailBaron here....We're a family of three, going on four and we're looking for 3BR places in the Cleveland area, but if I were to move back to Minneapolis I'd be SO interested in looking at Downtown/Uptown urban living options that are affordable and have 3 separate bedrooms. I know I don't have many choices in Minneapolis for that kind of living, so it's almost a non-starter for me/us.

[FISHMANPET]

Is it possible to build a 3 bedroom apartment in new construction and still have it competitive with single family homes? Even in the city itself you can get quite a lot of house for not a lot of money, if you're willing to go into certain neighborhoods.

The problem is that there's still demand for housing for young single professionals. Until that very profitable demand is met, there's no reason for anybody to be developing significant new multi-family housing for large families. Maybe in 20-40 years the Carlyle will be a little dumpy and the Carlyle II will be twice as big and twice as fancy, and a building like that can filter down to the middle class.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it's ever going to make sense for people to be building the kinds of housing that middle class families need in the core. What will make sense is renovating older buildings to meet that demand when even newer buildings take over the luxury market. So let them build Nic on Fifth and the Mortenson tower next door, and hope that the interior walls aren't structural, so in 20 years when something better comes around, those buildings can be renovated at a lower cost than new construction, thus making housing available to a wider range of incomes.

[twincitizen]

It would be nice to see more (quality) townhomes and rowhomes in the city, but not downtown. Not the hideous quad-style from the late 70s that are packed in cluster-y formations all over the 2nd ring suburbs. Those places are the ghettos of the future, if not already. It would be great to see urban-style rowhomes with private entrances and quality street frontage (as mentioned in a recent Joe Urban piece on Streets.MN) filling in the gaps and replacing dilapidated buildings. This would bring fresh housing stock and increase population density in the city's intermediate and far-flung neighborhoods in a scale that the neighborhoods would probably welcome (except Linden CAVEs: Citizens Against Virtually Everything)

[Didier]

There are several townhouses right by the river in the North Loop and across the river in Northeast. Many buildings in the Mill City area also have first-floor walk ups.

The number of families with children looking to live at Hennepin and 5th downtown is so negligible it's hard to understand this complaint.

[John]

Yes, building downtown housing for families with children is more appropriate on the edge of the CBD closer to parks and the riverfront. There is more land to build a housing complex with bigger units. Plymouth Building will be for singles, people wanting "urban cabins", empty nesters, or business people who live here part time.

[Tyler]

LOL. In the most respectful way possible, WTF is an urban cabin?

[Viktor Vaughn]

Re: urban cabin. In the most respectful way possible, use logic... or Google... to figure it out.

[Viktor Vaughn]

Ok, don't know why i'm surly today. LMGTFY.

Definition: Urban Cabin
1. Typically condos & lofts in a city or densely populated area like downtown.

2. A dwelling to relax in or use part time to enjoy local area activities.

[Didier]

I've heard that some Mayo Clinic doctors have "urban cabins" in the Twin Cities, for example.

[Tyler]

Heh. Duh again. I actually did google it but nothing on the first page was related. I was picturing moose heads, flannel, antique snow shoes, and wood.