222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

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nickmgray
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby nickmgray » November 6th, 2012, 11:04 am

I've never been a huge fan of the design, but I see this building as a stepping stone to really get this intersection and surrounding blocks fully developed.

Tyler
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Tyler » November 6th, 2012, 1:00 pm

I've never been a huge fan of the design, but I see this building as a stepping stone to really get this intersection and surrounding blocks fully developed.
The Eclipse!
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby John » November 6th, 2012, 1:03 pm

I've never been a huge fan of the design, but I see this building as a stepping stone to really get this intersection and surrounding blocks fully developed.
The Eclipse!
It would be great to see a revival of this project!

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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Wedgeguy » November 6th, 2012, 8:28 pm

I've never been a huge fan of the design, but I see this building as a stepping stone to really get this intersection and surrounding blocks fully developed.
The Eclipse!
That is the development that I talked about earlier in this thread that I think should be a or a pair of condo tower. With the height they will be able to look at the river or the downtown skyline. There is plenty of space for a pair of towers.

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Nick
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Nick » November 10th, 2012, 7:17 pm

The Hennepin & Washington corner appears to have a second story in concrete also, above what I figure will be the entrance to the Whole Foods.
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writruth
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby writruth » December 3rd, 2012, 11:47 pm

http://www.startribune.com/local/minnea ... 39101.html

Here's a link to the Strib story, detailing $1 Billion worth of Minneapolis housing development, much of which is underway in the downtown area. The massive investment, according to the Strib story, is the most since the condo boom earlier in the decade. It attributes low vacancy rates overall, the rise in millennials and baby boomers demand for downtown living, along with the rising interest in LRT transit. More good news for Minneapolis development.

Also, it lists Wednesday as the official ground breaking for the 5th at Nic high rise.

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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Wedgeguy » December 4th, 2012, 8:30 am

Looks like the north end of 222 is getting ready to top off. Finally working on the last level of stick construction. This is coming along nicely.

nasa35

Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby nasa35 » December 4th, 2012, 10:26 pm

I'm sorry.....but ghhaaaddd....I hate this project. Worst ever for downtown.

Unity77
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Unity77 » December 5th, 2012, 2:40 am

I've never been a huge fan of the design, but I see this building as a stepping stone to really get this intersection and surrounding blocks fully developed.
Well, if it's only going to attract more of the same, then no thanks.

This will be yet another MPLS project where 20 years from now, people will be asking WTF were the developers and Minneapolis officials thinking.

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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby mnmike » December 5th, 2012, 9:36 am

Yes, they will be saying...how could the city let them invest 75 million in this private development and bring a 40,000 square foot grocery store downtown 20 years ago? Crazy. I can't believe they would think of allowing it! They should have left the empty Jag dealer there, lost the tax revenue, and waited it out for who knows how long until some developer would build something (also privately financed) that was bigger and better. Ridiculous. What were they thinking?

Unfortunately, developers and the city are not playing a giant game of Sim city. If only.

Sorry that sounds brash, but I get sick of hearing this. The vast majority of people are not going to care now, or in 20 years if this block was built at 6 stories or 36 stories...they will just see it as part of the built environment, and...you can correct me if I am wrong in few years, but I am betting the benefit of the residents and the store will have a very positve influence on the area.

Can't we just ban anymore comments about how this development is unfit for the area? It is so unproductive, and just keeps going round and round with the same exact conversation. Feel free to delete any of my comments on the subject as well! I should never take that bait, it isn't worth the energy :) but then I do :(

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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Konante » December 5th, 2012, 10:04 am

Nobody is complaining about the benefit of a grocery store. It's entirely reasonable to bemoan the use of arguably one of the prime pieces of real estate in downtown for a 6 story apartment complex. Moreover, the apartments will be small/cramped, will age poorly due to inferior materials, and will come with prices that are WILDY out of whack to what they offer. That does very little to benefit the community. Don't be so short sighted as to value immediate tax revenue over a quality community.

With that said, this project isn't a nightmare by any means. It's not going to ruin anything and could be much, much worse. But it could be MUCH, MUCH better. Who cares if people get repetitive about it? It's a message board...

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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby mnmike » December 5th, 2012, 10:25 am

With that said, this project isn't a nightmare by any means. It's not going to ruin anything and could be much, much worse. But it could be MUCH, MUCH better.

I agree with that completely

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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Tyler » December 5th, 2012, 10:41 am

Nobody is complaining about the benefit of a grocery store. It's entirely reasonable to bemoan the use of arguably one of the prime pieces of real estate in downtown for a 6 story apartment complex. Moreover, the apartments will be small/cramped, will age poorly due to inferior materials, and will come with prices that are WILDY out of whack to what they offer. That does very little to benefit the community. Don't be so short sighted as to value immediate tax revenue over a quality community.
This is silly. If prices were WILDLY out of whack with what they offer why would anyone live here? How does a grocery store and new residential not contribute to a quality community? Because it's stick built (*gasp*)? Because you think it's overpriced (compared to what, exactly)? Because small apartments have no place in THE GATEWAY?
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Unity77
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Unity77 » December 5th, 2012, 10:50 am

Yes, they will be saying...how could the city let them invest 75 million in this private development and bring a 40,000 square foot grocery store downtown 20 years ago? Crazy. I can't believe they would think of allowing it! They should have left the empty Jag dealer there, lost the tax revenue, and waited it out for who knows how long until some developer would build something (also privately financed) that was bigger and better. Ridiculous. What were they thinking?
You know damn well I wasn't referring to the grocery store.
Can't we just ban anymore comments about how this development is unfit for the area? It is so unproductive, and just keeps going round and round with the same exact conversation. Feel free to delete any of my comments on the subject as well! I should never take that bait, it isn't worth the energy :) but then I do :(
Yes, all comments critical of these kind of projects and the developers involved should be banned. After all, why would anyone, especially someone who actually lives within city limits, feel it necessary to question a project's design and the developer's intentions?
Last edited by Unity77 on December 5th, 2012, 11:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

Konante
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Konante » December 5th, 2012, 10:57 am

This is silly. If prices were WILDLY out of whack with what they offer why would anyone live here? How does a grocery store and new residential not contribute to a quality community? Because it's stick built (*gasp*)? Because you think it's overpriced (compared to what, exactly)? Because small apartments have no place in THE GATEWAY?
Setting your contentious tone aside, I'll respond.

People will live there despite the high prices because they are willing to make sacrifices to live in desirable areas. But the disparity between the cost and value soon catches up and they scatter to the suburbs. It's overpriced for that reason. I believe most rental places in downtown are overpriced (note that I live downtown and will not be moving, just saying). I moved here from NYC and have spoken with a few others from large-ish cities that all share the same feeling. The building boom should allow supply to catch up with demand and correct the market, but right now, the costs don't justify the value for most people. This building is a prime example of that.

Small apartments do have a place in the gateway. But there is a difference between apartments that are small in square footage and those that are small in design. These will have low ceilings and multiple bedrooms crammed into not enough square footage. It's a profit issue for the developer--I get that--but a city/community wins the most when people love their home, neighborhood, etc. This will not engender those feelings over the long run for any of the 222 residents. So while a grocery store is undeniably a benefit to the community, you can't take one aspect of this development and champion it as absolute proof of a massive benefit.

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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Tyler » December 5th, 2012, 11:08 am

Setting your contentious tone aside, I'll respond.

People will live there despite the high prices because they are willing to make sacrifices to live in desirable areas. But the disparity between the cost and value soon catches up and they scatter to the suburbs. It's overpriced for that reason. I believe most rental places in downtown are overpriced (note that I live downtown and will not be moving, just saying). I moved here from NYC and have spoken with a few others from large-ish cities that all share the same feeling. The building boom should allow supply to catch up with demand and correct the market, but right now, the costs don't justify the value for most people. This building is a prime example of that.

Small apartments do have a place in the gateway. But there is a difference between apartments that are small in square footage and those that are small in design. These will have low ceilings and multiple bedrooms crammed into not enough square footage. It's a profit issue for the developer--I get that--but a city/community wins the most when people love their home, neighborhood, etc. This will not engender those feelings over the long run for any of the 222 residents. So while a grocery store is undeniably a benefit to the community, you can't take one aspect of this development and champion it as absolute proof of a massive benefit.
The market takes care of all the of this. Most rental downtown is not "overpriced." If it was there would be higher vacancy rates. Period. The opinion of you and those you've spoken to is truly irrelevant in this case. Any drawback the building has will also be taken care of by the market. If the building has a ton of problems rents will have to decrease. Or if the demand is still there despite those problems they won't. I still have no idea what this has to do with building "quality communities".
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mnmike
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby mnmike » December 5th, 2012, 11:09 am

Yes, all comments critical of these kind of projects and the developers involved should be banned. After all, why would anyone, especially someone who actually lives within city limits, feel it necessary to question a project's design and the developer's intentions?

And you know "damn well" that my point was that we have had this exact same argument about 127 times on here:) Not saying it isn't valid, just that it is getting old and going nowhere new.

Are you saying you don't think I live in the city limits? I do, and am downtown at least 6 days a week.
Last edited by mnmike on December 5th, 2012, 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

mnmike
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby mnmike » December 5th, 2012, 11:14 am

This is silly. If prices were WILDLY out of whack with what they offer why would anyone live here? How does a grocery store and new residential not contribute to a quality community? Because it's stick built (*gasp*)? Because you think it's overpriced (compared to what, exactly)? Because small apartments have no place in THE GATEWAY?
Setting your contentious tone aside, I'll respond.

People will live there despite the high prices because they are willing to make sacrifices to live in desirable areas. But the disparity between the cost and value soon catches up and they scatter to the suburbs. It's overpriced for that reason. I believe most rental places in downtown are overpriced (note that I live downtown and will not be moving, just saying). I moved here from NYC and have spoken with a few others from large-ish cities that all share the same feeling. The building boom should allow supply to catch up with demand and correct the market, but right now, the costs don't justify the value for most people. This building is a prime example of that.

Small apartments do have a place in the gateway. But there is a difference between apartments that are small in square footage and those that are small in design. These will have low ceilings and multiple bedrooms crammed into not enough square footage. It's a profit issue for the developer--I get that--but a city/community wins the most when people love their home, neighborhood, etc. This will not engender those feelings over the long run for any of the 222 residents. So while a grocery store is undeniably a benefit to the community, you can't take one aspect of this development and champion it as absolute proof of a massive benefit.

I don't know...these aren't that small really. Even the studios go up to 575 square feet, one bedrooms up to 900, and 2 bedrooms up to 1,300 square feet. That really isn't small...larger than most old apartment buildings in the inner city. Also, I am sure they will have the standard new construction 9 foot ceilings, which I wouldn't consider low.

http://www.222hennepin.com/Home/Apartments

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Nick
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Nick » December 5th, 2012, 11:44 am

I just can't over the inability of like 75 percent of people to comprehend rental prices. "Building more units makes units more expensive!" "We need to build more affordable housing!"

What??
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Nathan
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Re: 222 & Whole Foods - (222 Hennepin Avenue)

Postby Nathan » December 5th, 2012, 12:05 pm

I think we all get that this would have been more ideal with more units, more height, even something more like the Cobalt, but the market afforded us enough confidence to build what we're getting. It's going to be the most expensive residential development in this neighborhood in how long? This isn't just a conversion either. It will have great amenities for the residents and the neighborhood. We can't expect to go from recession to 40 floors over night. This project sets the tone for and anchors nicely the North Loop neighborhood. It's very in scale for that. That being said there is no scarcity of potential for upward construction in the immediate vicinity and future. If their units have to drop in price when more and cooler and taller buildings go in next door then so be it. I'll happily defend this building 20 years from now as a kick-starter to development and a more livable gateway neighborhood.


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