RBC Gateway & Four Seasons - 37 stories - 519'

[lordmoke]

What? How does the Hancock Center support your point that tall buildings do not visually draw foot traffic? I think it's very hard to walk down Michigan and not be drawn towards the Hancock from a half mile or more away.

I'd submit that the Cheesecake Factory draws more people to the Hancock center than its tall building magnetism.

but I do think there is evidence that iconic buildings draw more street traffic than what one would expect for their density.

Where? I'd be happily proven wrong.

The Empire State Building and the Trump Tower in Chicago are similarly sized. The Trump is technically larger, even. I've never seen people (let alone large groups) going out of their way to see the Trump Tower.

[Tyler]

Well, the observation decks are obviously big draws. That's a different thing.

[MN Fats]

Well, the observation decks are obviously big draws. That's a different thing.

Right. For example the Space Needle in Seattle or the St Louis Gateway Arch. Everyone knows there's an observation deck, so that's on the list of destinations you'll go to if you're in town. Empire State Building, Willis Tower, John Hancock are on that list too. It doesn't hurt that they're internationally known landmarks. Maybe if this skyscraper is built it will become nationally or at least regionally known enough that tourists will gravitate to an observation deck.

Also I'll say that I've been to John Hancock a few times over the years, and I didn't even know there was a Cheesecake factory there.

[Wedgeguy]

Tyler you make it sound like the observation deck is the only reason people go to the Hancock Tower. This is a mixed use build that has Residential, Office which draws a majority of the people to the building daily. I'm quite sure the number of people going into the building for the observation deck or the Cheesecake Factory is a very small single digit percentage of the people that go thru the doors.

People in town for a convention are not going to head up to the north end of the mall if they do not have something to draw them from the convention center that far north. That is the visual calling card Tyler. Maybe you are not drawn to the tallest building in town, but there is a large percentage that are drawn to the Icons in any town that they visit. You have your opinion and I doubt that anything will change that.

You can also have all the street presence in the world but it you have few reasons to go there or know that it is there. Harmon Place has a great street presence, but it does not have the daytime population to help keep most of the restaurants in the area profitable. Why the larger concentration of people makes for the more lively street scape. This is why you want as much Office, Hotel and residential that you can fit into the area. They are what create the 18 hour foot traffic.

[7sisters]

When I was a kid in the 80s, we had a field trip to the IDS center, along with several other schools. I remember it being the best and most interesting field trip of the elementary school year. So on that day, the tall ironic IDS drew 250+kids. I can see where tall skyscrapers attract people and tourists. Isn't that common sense?

[kirby96]

It costs $30 to visit the Top of the Rock. Just the viewing platform. If you can get $30 from people to ride an elevator, you must be some kind of draw...

[a_tribe_called_chris]

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/p ... r/16176021

[nate]

This discussion has been interesting and I'm glad there are people that are willing to argue for the other proposals, because it's made me refine my own reasons for liking the Duval proposal.

I think that what I like most about it, beyond height, architectural form, or the mix of proposed uses (which I have to admit, are each big selling points to me) is its ambition. Of the four proposals, it is the only one that breaks the status quo for developments downtown. Doran, UP, and Mortenson each propose things that are remarkably similar to what has worked elsewhere: 20-30 stories, a collage-ey (made up word) mixture of exterior materials intended to break down the scale of the building and superficially break up its form; and a tentative mixture of uses. Like many have said, this isn't really much different from what is offered by Nic on Fifth. None of the three tell me the developer sees the potential of the site, and its role as the linchpin connecting the Warehouse District, North Loop, Nicollet Mall, and the river/Mill District.

So in that regard, Duval stands out. It makes form and uses materials with uncompromising simplicity that I find very attractive. It has a lighted crown that will stand out on the skyline and be recognizable from street level. It proposes a daring mixture of uses. It proposes an atrium inspired by one of the very best indoor public spaces anywhere. To me, it does everything the other proposals do, only better. And the ambition of the proposal itself tells me that this developer sees our city as a great place that can be even better - not just a safe real estate investment promising practical returns on capital. I like it.

[Wedgeguy]

I'm not surprised by the strong showing of the Duval project in the BizJ poll. I'm sure the height has something to do with it. But when the numbers show it is 2 to1 over the other 3 combined you have to ask why people are draw to this proposal.

Someone else on here brought up the fact that we have not give the Duval project and Mr. Duval credit for the people that he has worked with. He has worked for John Portman, a top rate architect and also has an engineering department to his group. Portman designed several iconic building in several cities. He has worked on projects in several countries where mixed use is standard construction. Having worked over seas, I'm sure that he has connections with investors looking for a safe investment in the US. Especially in a city like MPLS where we have such a strong and diverse economy, world class airport, and yes even the MOA.
He is working with the Cunningham group (local) and Perkins & Will another national if not international firm ( who also has a local office at 10th and Nicollet mall), so I expect great work from both of those firms.

Some on here like to look thru blinders, while us who look at the bigger picture are said to look thru rose colored glasses. I much prefer the Rose Colored Glasses as I have more faith in this city than many on here and have seen what can happen when the right catalyst has been added in the past.

[Tyler]

Yeah. I think a tall building with an iconic (surprised this hasn't been word filtered by now) design, an observation deck, many uses, and a great street presence will draw people too it. So we agree?

[John]

I think that what I like most about it, beyond height, architectural form, or the mix of proposed uses (which I have to admit, are each big selling points to me) is its ambition. Of the four proposals, it is the only one that breaks the status quo for developments downtown. Doran, UP, and Mortenson each propose things that are remarkably similar to what has worked elsewhere: 20-30 stories, a collage-ey (made up word) mixture of exterior materials intended to break down the scale of the building and superficially break up its form; and a tentative mixture of uses. Like many have said, this isn't really much different from what is offered by Nic on Fifth. None of the three tell me the developer sees the potential of the site, and its role as the linchpin connecting the Warehouse District, North Loop, Nicollet Mall, and the river/Mill District.

Well said and AMEN!

[a_tribe_called_chris]

[deleted post]

Mod note: Please do not copy and paste the full text of news articles. 2-3 sentences at most to highlight specific points is fine. Anything more than that and you're putting us at risk of copyright violation. Thanks.

[mnmike]

There is a new angle rendering there...it is too big when I try to link it though!

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/286130441.html

[Nathan]

Good info! Just so you know publications get upset when articles are copy and pasted into the forum.

[Nathan]

The new rendering sells me more, the two tones of cladding, slight angling in on the hen side of the tower and green deck are some of those little things that it needed.

[mnmike]

[mister.shoes]

So originally I was thinking that the best shape for this tower would be to have each side stay parallel to it's respective avenue, giving us a nice trapezoid that is skinnier at the river end and wider at the DT end. The Mortenson proposal showed that the width of the block along Washington is a detriment and makes for a tower that's far too wide.

This newest Duval rendering—if I'm understanding it right (and Nathan's comments appear to indicate that he's understanding it the way I am)—shows something really clever. The Nicollet side is parallel to Hennepin and the Hennepin side to Nicollet. So we still get a trapezoid, but it tapers away from the river instead of toward it.

It's entirely possible that this is just a rectangle and not a trapezoid and the extreme perspective of these renderings is fooling the eye, but I'm really hoping for what I think I'm seeing.

[mister.shoes]

Upon further review, I take back my "really clever" statement above. I think it is a rectangle after all. Both the north and south side cutouts appear to take up the same amount of tower. Oh well, this newest rendering is still a real winner.

[mnmike]

Hmmm, I think it is a rectangle.

[twincitizen]

There is a new angle rendering there...it is too big when I try to link it though!

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/286130441.html

Looking back on the original story from 2 days ago I found this rendering of the Nicollet Mall frontage: http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/1 ... 4.jpg.jpeg

Was that image there all along and I just missed it? Or did Strib update the story to include the street level rendering? Either way, it's something to chew on. It certainly adds the park space the city is looking for, and I think it relates well to the plans for public space along the Nicollet frontage of the Library: http://media.bizj.us/view/img/2053681/nicmall9b*600.jpg

So was United's proposal the only one that permitted a diagonal streetcar crossing then? It appears that Duval, Doran, and Mortenson do not. As I stated earlier, it seems that you would want all vehicular/truck access to be done on 3rd Street, which already functions as a utilitarian corridor and is not likely to have retail or a people-first focus. If one side of the block must have terrible frontage, let it be 3rd. The problem with an "around the block" streetcar routing is that it puts streetcar tracks on 3rd (one direction anyways), setting up conflicts with that vehicle/truck access into the building.