Archopolis, We agree on some things and disagree on others, The old glass half full or empty syndrome.
There we part ways to a point. I can't see more open space when there is Loring Park to the south and the whole river front to the north. We have Peavey Plaza and the Commons as city owned open land that will be reworked in the coming years. We have Gateway Park, as much as you seem to hate it, is an established city park. While it has much to be desired. It also has a lot of potential. I see a lot or potential if the city will team with the Shorenstein to work to make the area at the end of Nicollet more friendly. See if we can maybe move some of the parking to underground and put a cap on it and cover with parkland. That would better open up the pathway between the north loop and the mill district along our lost 2nd street. There already is land, we just have to utilize it better. You will get no old growth trees on the Nicollet Block for 60+ years and you have a bunch right there in Gateway Park. Yes it is not well used, has poor layout, and somewhat feels like it is the corporate land. It is the city's responsibility to make this park work for it's citizens. There should be gathering areas, possible playground near where 2nd should run, and paths to invite people into the park with benches. The park's history may play into why it has become the forgotten park. But there is plenty of space to move people from Nicollet Ave to the plazas near 1st street thru new paths to the river front. There is no need to keep prime taxable land off the books for this reason. Until we work with what we have, how can we add more obligations to the park system that is already over burdened. There is not enough money now to keep neighborhood parks functioning.
Like I said, I agree with a lot of what you’ve said.
My central point is this:
Destinations that are dedicated to open space and play are lacking from the North Loop to Gold Medal Park and there are very few opportunities (that are city-owned) to do something about it. If we don’t want families downtown long-term then I guess that is fine but it seems that we are at a point of no return on the *possibility*.
If something creative and excellent could be done with Gateway Park then I could agree with your way of thinking but I’m having a hard time seeing it: feels like the “front yard” of Towers, small, oddly shaped, existing hardscape investment at the corner, no buffer to Hennepin… Now, if you want to integrate the “lost” 2nd St into this somehow then I think that we could be onto something. The negative history is so far in the past that it shouldn’t even be a barrier.
I agree that the park system is already strained and investment should be made to improve what we have first. BUT, my central point stands - if we don’t invest in these types of places, then we are saying that families are only welcome as short term visitors.
You identified Loring Park as a place for play and open space and I fully agree. The area surrounding Loring Park is dense (and has a pretty tall tower adjacent). Families aren’t the number one constituency here but at least it is *possible* to live in an urban way. I see the “north” end of Nicollet as having the same potential for dense, urban living. A nearby grocery store as well as the other amenities offered in downtown and the only thing missing is a great park. Before someone brings up the river, I’ll counter again that walking four-eight blocks with a couple of kids just to GET to a play space is not great.
See Wicker Park in Chicago…it isn’t a direct analog because it isn’t the “ragged edge” of a downtown CBD but the density, nearby fixed rail transit and proximity to a great park are fitting, and I think makes such urbanism possible - IF we plan for it.
I guess in a way I'm one of the royal "We's", in that I don't see family housing as being a priority downtown. I have no problem with people wanting to raise a family downtown, but I think the focus should be 2 bedroom or less.
I guess I’d ask, “Why? Why is this the default?”
I’m an idealist so I’m always looking at what I think an ideal could be and I think if 10-20% of the housing in Loring Park could be 3 bedrooms and that families could live carless, walk to Loring Park, walk to Lund’s for groceries and get a bite to eat on Nicollet, isn’t that a great way to characterize “walkable urbanism?” The way that you are defining it, multi-family housing AND walkable urbanism aren’t desirable and I ask again, “Why not?”
But if some 3 bedroom units fit on a floor plate
Not a problem.
and there is takers, more power to them.
“Takers” are a problem as long as the city doesn’t make it a priority.
I'll be up front in that I grew up in a smaller town and was what they call today a free-range kid. I'd bike to the park, to the swimming pool, take rides out onto the blacktops in the country alone or with my friends. But those day are long gone now, Would be hard to let your 6 year old walk from the Soo Line to Loring Park to play on their own. I'd have a hard enough time letting them here in the Wedge at on of the close parks.
I fully agree, it’s trickier now but should we just cede the point and say it is impossible?
…but families should feel apart of the city. My growing up perception is, kids need space to release energy.
YES! Let’s provide that space! Gold Medal Park works well, hopefully The Commons will work (eek!), but there is almost ZERO green space heading west until you get to North Minneapolis and south until you get to Elliot Park.
I hope that better explains why I feel the way I do and why I see no need to add space when we don't use what we already have. With some work and partnerships we can work to make the Gateway area an easier place to navigate and spend time in.
Your thoughts are reasonable and leaving the Nicollet Block for development (and thus added revenue) is sound. The idea to improve what we have sounds great if something special could be achieved at Gateway and 2nd and if that were the case, I'd completely abandon ideas about the Nicollet block being a park. I’d just like to see some *consideration* for family-friendly improvements in this part of town before it is too late…