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Archiapolis
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » June 19th, 2015, 7:33 am

If United can't get their proposal built I think the city should step back and make a plan that is concrete in what they expect and not let them fudge their way under the proposal. I also feel that they need to open it up, when they do resubmit, to National Developers too. Give them a real time line that can allow for great proposals to be put for and not half ass schematics with no real foundation on how they plan to achieve it. The short period that the city gave is one of the reasons that this process is sinking so far.
Nailed it!

Rip up the parking lot, put in turf grass and be patient to get the best possible outcome instead of whatever is on offer.

Also, put me in the camp (maybe I'm alone in this camp?) that wants this block turned into public space. I know money and The Commons and the park board etc but conceptually a "bookend" to Peavey Plaza (or Loring Park depending on your viewpoint) that could start to create some green connectivity to the river could be an amazing space.

At some point we have to start thinking about planning for growth downtown that isn't solely directed at YUPPIES (this is not a pejorative - thanks to yuppies, the city is seeing major growth so "Go YUPPIES!"). I feel like we are approaching a tipping point (planning-wise) where it isn't going to be possible to build public schools, or "kid-friendly" park/play spaces downtown.

Perhaps "downtown" isn't the place for families (I disagree) but at least we should be discussing whether or not we want to TRY to make it a place for families before the last sites left are next to county morgues.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby FISHMANPET » June 19th, 2015, 8:31 am

I don't think the very heart of the CBD is the place for families, but you've got Mill District, North Loop, Loring Park, Elliot Park, etc surrounding on all sides that are places for families (or at least with enough empty parking lots to create those needed spaces)

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » June 19th, 2015, 8:56 am

I don't think the very heart of the CBD is the place for families, but you've got Mill District, North Loop, Loring Park, Elliot Park, etc surrounding on all sides that are places for families (or at least with enough empty parking lots to create those needed spaces)
Sorry for the lack of clarity...when I say "downtown" I'm including the places that you are talking about and not proposing a grade school for 7th and Nicollet.

Sorry to go off topic but it is relevant to the Nicollet Block as this place is an "edge" between the North Loop and the CBD - this could be a special place...

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby PigsEye » June 19th, 2015, 10:57 am

I don't think the very heart of the CBD is the place for families, but you've got Mill District, North Loop, Loring Park, Elliot Park, etc surrounding on all sides that are places for families (or at least with enough empty parking lots to create those needed spaces)
Nicollet Hotel Block is not the "very heart of the CBD" Ritz block, Public Library, and Encore will surround this site. Plus Nic on Fifth, 4Marq, and with Soo Line I guess this could even be labeled as the CRD Central Residential District? The powers that be still seem confident they will be able to find more parties interested in the existing building plan. I'm not ready to announce the time of defeat quite yet. Although maybe with this delay they will rethink their idea of a "modern green space' and put in a small traditional park space. How NYC would that be! :D

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby FISHMANPET » June 19th, 2015, 11:17 am

I'd say Nicollet Mall between 12th and 4th is the main retail and office street of the CBD, making this block one bookend of that street. But I don't think that street is really appropriate for "families," I think the public investments made at various levels are for this area to continue to be office and retail, and if there is going to be housing it can be childless families or singles or retirees or something, the land is just too valuable for 3 bedroom plus units, and the kind of needed amenities for families are (I think) somewhat in conflict with the needs of an office and retail district.

And besides, there's Cancer survivor's park across the street, and some greenspace across Washington with a "Gateway Park" sign (that could, admittedly, better connect to the river). But yeah, I don't think this needs to be a park.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Wedgeguy » June 19th, 2015, 12:49 pm

I agree with you Pigseye, My post said IF, but like you and other posts that I have posted before. I have more faith in United to get a project done. Now if this was Mortensen, Opus, or Kraus I'd have put of the sinking ship distress signal by now too. But I'll give them some time to work to find new partners and see what new vision they can make happen that meet the RSP requirements.
FISHMANPET, I agree with your observations too. There is a 2/3 block of park called the Gateway park that is very much under utilized. It is one thing to say there is no green space, but when you have 2/3 of a block of parkland that is not being utilized, and you say we need more. I totally disagree with that. The Nicollet Block needs to be commercial in some form or another. Whether it is retail on the street level, with residential on top, or office that will bring people to that end of the mall. WE NEED TAXABLE PURPOSES ON THIS BLOCK. (Does not mean they can't have a small corner park like the present proposal). Can we imagine what the increase in tax base would be if all of the non performing land that the city is sitting on were to come onto the tax rolls $$$$. I have to agree that the focus of developments should not be family oriented. Just my outlook, not anti family. But I think the center core is more of a family less domain myself. But some people will make it work.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby PigsEye » June 19th, 2015, 1:53 pm

I agree with you Pigseye, My post said IF, but like you and other posts that I have posted before. I have more faith in United to get a project done. Now if this was Mortensen, Opus, or Kraus I'd have put of the sinking ship distress signal by now too. But I'll give them some time to work to find new partners and see what new vision they can make happen that meet the RSP requirements.
FISHMANPET, I agree with your observations too. There is a 2/3 block of park called the Gateway park that is very much under utilized. It is one thing to say there is no green space, but when you have 2/3 of a block of parkland that is not being utilized, and you say we need more. I totally disagree with that. The Nicollet Block needs to be commercial in some form or another. Whether it is retail on the street level, with residential on top, or office that will bring people to that end of the mall. WE NEED TAXABLE PURPOSES ON THIS BLOCK. (Does not mean they can't have a small corner park like the present proposal). Can we imagine what the increase in tax base would be if all of the non performing land that the city is sitting on were to come onto the tax rolls $$$$. I have to agree that the focus of developments should not be family oriented. Just my outlook, not anti family. But I think the center core is more of a family less domain myself. But some people will make it work.
Some good points, the existing greenspace is not inviting enough I agree and should be better utilized given space is hard to come by in this area. The other half of the Thrivent financial center block would be a better location for office space. Great accessibility to parking through the skyway, and good amount of street community space near the commons, and the government buildings. Of course anything farther east will likely be mixed use at best. Also the TCF block is another great opportunity for added office space (with other mixed uses such as hotel space too). It would be a shame to have a building with mostly office space located at the corner of Hennepin and Washington. The more residential and hotel space the better. A building located on Nicollet Hotel block with traffic mostly focused around 7-4 M-F would greatly mellow down the communities traffic and activity after the work hours.

I would much rather have NO public green space at Nicollet Hotel block and they funnel the funds into a redesign of the existing greenspace at other locations. Though with the planned streetcar that wrecks that idea, and makes adding greenspace the most "logical" option. Sure would be something after all that work in planning they end up scrapping the streetcar plan.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » June 19th, 2015, 2:57 pm

I'd say Nicollet Mall between 12th and 4th is the main retail and office street of the CBD, making this block one bookend of that street. But I don't think that street is really appropriate for "families," I think the public investments made at various levels are for this area to continue to be office and retail, and if there is going to be housing it can be childless families or singles or retirees or something, the land is just too valuable for 3 bedroom plus units, and the kind of needed amenities for families are (I think) somewhat in conflict with the needs of an office and retail district.

And besides, there's Cancer survivor's park across the street, and some greenspace across Washington with a "Gateway Park" sign (that could, admittedly, better connect to the river). But yeah, I don't think this needs to be a park.
It appears that we disagree about the boundaries of an “office and retail district” and what makes a great city.

Soo Line, Nic on Fifth, 4 Marq, Ritz Block, 222 Hennepin, 100 Hennepin, “Towers” (on Hennepin), whatever Stanton is planning with his land, North Loop just west, Mill District (with a lot of housing to the east) central public library on the next block and THE defining street (soon-to-be) as a major connection.

This area is currently trending STRONGLY in the direction of housing with more coming on-line. Retail is almost non-existent on this end of Nicollet and in my opinion, putting retail at this location will NOT be an extension of the retail on 9th and Nicollet - the idea that someone is going to go to Target then walk down Nicollet browsing their way through the shops to this location is borderline laughable. This area is exactly where offices start to dissipate and the “CBD” becomes “CHD.”

If “we” (in the royal) don’t want families downtown then let’s have the discussion: Why don’t we want families downtown? Is it impossible? Are kids undesirable? Is it dangerous for kids to be in an urban neighborhood? What exactly are your concerns?

There are children in very dense parts of other cities so this isn’t some insane notion that I’ve plucked out of the air. However, the presence (or lack) of children is defined by planning. If there is very little green space and ZERO play space and no schools, then there won’t be families - simple. However, this decision is based on planning and budget and if we don’t plan and budget for these “amenities” then they won’t exist and families won’t be a part of what is happening downtown and that seems to be your desired outcome.

People up and down these threads talk about “destinations”, “public realm” and “places to take visitors.” Then in the next breath, a lot of pressure is put on Nicollet Ave to become this magic combination of all three things. Is it possible for Nicollet Ave to become such a wonderful place without the presence of families? Is it possible or even desirable for families to enjoy Nicollet Avenue as a “destination/public realm/place to visit?” If the answer is yes, then why can’t one end of this street that is already becoming dominated by housing be a place that is amenable to families as well as the childless and/or elderly? I look at Crown Fountain and “Cloud Gate” (the “Bean”) at Millennium Park and despite the fact that there is a massive amount of green space, strolling paths, etc, the fountain area is by far the busiest space in the park because it is active and an excellent attraction for all ages. I say “attraction” very deliberately - this is a place to bring visitors and for people that live nearby to also come and enjoy the activity there and just look at the scale and density of the buildings right across the street. I know the general sentiment is that only New York can achieve a High Line, Chicago a Crown Fountain and Paris an Eiffel Tower and Minneapolis isn’t “world class”, it’s flyover country peopled with reserved Lutherans and Prairie Home Companion and all of that but are we EVER going to at least try and do something special once in a while?

My argument for turning this block into common space is that we are VERY quickly running out of opportunities for common space/public space that can be a destination for families in these areas of the city. Sorry but you can’t be serious about Gateway “Park” and the greenspace on the north side of Washington (to the west/north of ING or whatever it is called nowadays). These spaces are either outdated windswept plazas or formal, semi-private corporate “yards.” Cancer Survivor’s Park is not a great park by any standards - an elevated, green roof that is a semi-private “park” adjacent to a corporate office building…I’ve lived here for 22 years, watched it get constructed and I have NEVER set foot in that “park” and I worked for years within blocks of this place. I have never even considered bringing my family to this “park” as a destination and it has always been very sparsely inhabited until very recently and even this recent activity is fleeting in nature (with all due respect to Max Musicant).

https://www.minnpost.com/cityscape/2012 ... pace-place

I’m not advocating for 3 bedroom units on this property but I’m not against the idea either. I think it would take a bold developer to attempt such a project but this is a “chicken/egg” problem. None but the boldest of families are going to move downtown (anywhere) without three things within very close walking distance: grocery stores (full service), parks/play space and schools. Right now two out of three are (almost) non-existent and thus, there are very few families.

If we develop every possible site from the North Loop, through the Gateway District, Mill District to Seven Corners as 70% studios and one bedrooms and 30% two bedrooms and create no family friendly play space or schools then families will never live in this area. Maybe the city desires such an outcome, maybe not but if we continue on this path, then this outcome is assured.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby PigsEye » June 19th, 2015, 3:47 pm

I don't think many developers would be pushing for 3br. apartments. Space wize you can get higher rents with less bedrooms. Perhaps a small number of 3br's if it fits into the existing layout. It does seem a bit backwards the micro apartment tower is building over by the Hilton and not here. This location would do well with micro apartments.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Wedgeguy » June 19th, 2015, 5:31 pm

Archopolis, We agree on some things and disagree on others, The old glass half full or empty syndrome.

I'll start with where we agree. I look at the area north of 4th as the transition section of the CBD to CHD. Generally north of 4th you have a mix of office and housing that coexist on the same blocks. (Why I still prefer one housing and one office tower on the Ritz block). Coming from NL in the west all the way to 7 corners by the U we have this patchwork of mixed uses that works very well together. I tend to prefer residential over office for the Nicollet Block. Not to say there can't be a portion of office, but I lean to residential.

There we part ways to a point. I can't see more open space when there is Loring Park to the south and the whole river front to the north. We have Peavey Plaza and the Commons as city owned open land that will be reworked in the coming years. We have Gateway Park, as much as you seem to hate it, is an established city park. While it has much to be desired. It also has a lot of potential. I see a lot or potential if the city will team with the Shorenstein to work to make the area at the end of Nicollet more friendly. See if we can maybe move some of the parking to underground and put a cap on it and cover with parkland. That would better open up the pathway between the north loop and the mill district along our lost 2nd street. There already is land, we just have to utilize it better. You will get no old growth trees on the Nicollet Block for 60+ years and you have a bunch right there in Gateway Park. Yes it is not well used, has poor layout, and somewhat feels like it is the corporate land. It is the city's responsibility to make this park work for it's citizens. There should be gathering areas, possible playground near where 2nd should run, and paths to invite people into the park with benches. The park's history may play into why it has become the forgotten park. But there is plenty of space to move people from Nicollet Ave to the plazas near 1st street thru new paths to the river front. There is no need to keep prime taxable land off the books for this reason. Until we work with what we have, how can we add more obligations to the park system that is already over burdened. There is not enough money now to keep neighborhood parks functioning.
Moving along here, I agree with you about the Cancer Survivors Park. Because it is built on the underground section of the old Fed Reserve it is up and away from the street level. While I have seen people sit out on the grass , I've also over the years seen people asked to get off the grass. If it is truly a park then there should be benches that welcome you to look out over the sea of parking lots below. I take the steps up to the building all the time to get into the skyway so I know you can get there easy enough, but the reverence that seems to be placed there, over powers the want to stay and enjoy yourself. I like the art, would enjoy some more up there with seating near by to sit to enjoy looking at the art. Again this is a perception issue, I'm not sure what the policy is for the park and whether you can just walk around there or not. I'm hoping with the new development that we make it feel less foreboding and more welcoming in the years to come if they add more land down at street level and make the steps up less unwelcoming. I could go into the mess that they made with this new mall design, but I'll just say that they had someone that did not understand MPLS and its past and just drop kicked a project that could go just about anywhere in and said. "Look. pretty shiny things, pretty tree, chairs, with no real understand of how they would work in the long run. End of that rant.

I guess in a way I'm one of the royal "We's", in that I don't see family housing as being a priority downtown. I have no problem with people wanting to raise a family downtown, but I think the focus should be 2 bedroom or less. But if some 3 bedroom units fit on a floor plate and there is takers, more power to them. I'll be up front in that I grew up in a smaller town and was what they call today a free-range kid. I'd bike to the park, to the swimming pool, take rides out onto the blacktops in the country alone or with my friends. But those day are long gone now, Would be hard to let your 6 year old walk from the Soo Line to Loring Park to play on their own. I'd have a hard enough time letting them here in the Wedge at on of the close parks. Again all one perspective on how they look at things.

I've never advicated for family not to be included on the mall. I'm one that wishes they would put the planetarium on the Main Library. Not sure I want Chucky Cheese to move into Block E, but families should feel apart of the city. My growing up perception is, kids need space to release energy.

I hope that better explains why I feel the way I do and why I see no need to add space when we don't use what we already have. With some work and partnerships we can work to make the Gateway area an easier place to navigate and spend time in.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » June 19th, 2015, 5:36 pm

Archopolis, We agree on some things and disagree on others, The old glass half full or empty syndrome.

I'll start with where we agree. I look at the area north of 4th as the transition section of the CBD to CHD. Generally north of 4th you have a mix of office and housing that coexist on the same blocks. (Why I still prefer one housing and one office tower on the Ritz block). Coming from NL in the west all the way to 7 corners by the U we have this patchwork of mixed uses that works very well together. I tend to prefer residential over office for the Nicollet Block. Not to say there can't be a portion of office, but I lean to residential.

There we part ways to a point. I can't see more open space when there is Loring Park to the south and the whole river front to the north. We have Peavey Plaza and the Commons as city owned open land that will be reworked in the coming years. We have Gateway Park, as much as you seem to hate it, is an established city park. While it has much to be desired. It also has a lot of potential. I see a lot or potential if the city will team with the Shorenstein to work to make the area at the end of Nicollet more friendly. See if we can maybe move some of the parking to underground and put a cap on it and cover with parkland. That would better open up the pathway between the north loop and the mill district along our lost 2nd street. There already is land, we just have to utilize it better. You will get no old growth trees on the Nicollet Block for 60+ years and you have a bunch right there in Gateway Park. Yes it is not well used, has poor layout, and somewhat feels like it is the corporate land. It is the city's responsibility to make this park work for it's citizens. There should be gathering areas, possible playground near where 2nd should run, and paths to invite people into the park with benches. The park's history may play into why it has become the forgotten park. But there is plenty of space to move people from Nicollet Ave to the plazas near 1st street thru new paths to the river front. There is no need to keep prime taxable land off the books for this reason. Until we work with what we have, how can we add more obligations to the park system that is already over burdened. There is not enough money now to keep neighborhood parks functioning.
Moving along here, I agree with you about the Cancer Survivors Park. Because it is built on the underground section of the old Fed Reserve it is up and away from the street level. While I have seen people sit out on the grass , I've also over the years seen people asked to get off the grass. If it is truly a park then there should be benches that welcome you to look out over the sea of parking lots below. I take the steps up to the building all the time to get into the skyway so I know you can get there easy enough, but the reverence that seems to be placed there, over powers the want to stay and enjoy yourself. I like the art, would enjoy some more up there with seating near by to sit to enjoy looking at the art. Again this is a perception issue, I'm not sure what the policy is for the park and whether you can just walk around there or not. I'm hoping with the new development that we make it feel less foreboding and more welcoming in the years to come if they add more land down at street level and make the steps up less unwelcoming. I could go into the mess that they made with this new mall design, but I'll just say that they had someone that did not understand MPLS and its past and just drop kicked a project that could go just about anywhere in and said. "Look. pretty shiny things, pretty tree, chairs, with no real understand of how they would work in the long run. End of that rant.

I guess in a way I'm one of the royal "We's", in that I don't see family housing as being a priority downtown. I have no problem with people wanting to raise a family downtown, but I think the focus should be 2 bedroom or less. But if some 3 bedroom units fit on a floor plate and there is takers, more power to them. I'll be up front in that I grew up in a smaller town and was what they call today a free-range kid. I'd bike to the park, to the swimming pool, take rides out onto the blacktops in the country alone or with my friends. But those day are long gone now, Would be hard to let your 6 year old walk from the Soo Line to Loring Park to play on their own. I'd have a hard enough time letting them here in the Wedge at on of the close parks. Again all one perspective on how they look at things.

I've never advicated for family not to be included on the mall. I'm one that wishes they would put the planetarium on the Main Library. Not sure I want Chucky Cheese to move into Block E, but families should feel apart of the city. My growing up perception is, kids need space to release energy.

I hope that better explains why I feel the way I do and why I see no need to add space when we don't use what we already have. With some work and partnerships we can work to make the Gateway area an easier place to navigate and spend time in.
This is all very well said. I actually agree with most of this...I'm going to respond soon. Cheers for engaging.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby FISHMANPET » June 19th, 2015, 6:07 pm

You could build a pretty nice 3 bedroom in 1500 sqft, but considering that the market is building 1 bedrooms in 1000 sqft, developers would probably "want" to build 2000 sqft for a 3 bedroom. With rents at $2 a sqft is anyone going to pay $4000 for a family unit? Hell, at 1500 sqft you're still looking at $3000. Granted, it would be slightly cheaper to build a single 2000 sqft unit rather than 2 1000 sqft unit, as you've got only one kitchen, but the bulk of your cost is in structure anyway.

I think the best way to make the Mall accessible to families is to make it accessible period. If the CBD was 50 story towers for 10 miles in all directions, I'd say maybe it would need to be a priority. But you've got family friendly housing close by in all directions. A young family can do just fine in a 2 bedroom, of which there are already plenty, I don't think we need to make more family friendly housing a priority in this area .

And the idea of a park on a weirdly shaped block bordered by two busy streets being comparable to Millennium Park or Central Park is pretty laughable. And since we're talking about a future version of this lot rather than its current state, why does the current state of Cancer Survivors Park or the Gateway area matter? Out of the 3, this block is by far the worst park in its current state. But we're not talking about current state, we're talking about what could be. There are issues in that the Cancer Survivors park and the space directly north of Washington Ave is privately owned, but I don't think those are insurmountable problems.

I also think this is a pretty bad place for a "family friendly" park, with it being rather small and surrounded by the very busy Hennepin and Washington. There's plenty of green space in the Mill District and Loring Park, and plenty of opportunity in the North Loop and Elliot Park and basically all over.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby aeisenberg » June 19th, 2015, 6:54 pm

Just throwing this stat out there because it's interesting to me: Last year there were 1290 condos sold in Minneapolis

0 BR - 27 units
1 BR - 454 units
2 BR - 744 units
3 BR - 59 units
4 BR - 5 units
5 BR - 1 unit

I wish I could compare this to denser cities. Anyway. Carry on.
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Wedgeguy » June 19th, 2015, 7:00 pm

Just throwing this stat out there because it's interesting to me: Last year there were 1290 condos sold in Minneapolis

0 BR - 27 units
1 BR - 454 units
2 BR - 744 units
3 BR - 59 units
4 BR - 5 units
5 BR - 1 unit

I wish I could compare this to denser cities. Anyway. Carry on.
Those 4 and 5 bedroom units must have been old warehouse conversions!! I thought to get 3 bedroom in a condo was a reach!! Thanks for those numbers, they show that there is a market for condo's out there. They could sell more if there was more of a supply to pick from! If they just sold 20% more units, that would be close to a 250 unit tower. With those numbers I think that United could easily sell 175 units in 15-18 months excluding presales with the location that their tower would have. Look what Stonebridge did where they were at. :D

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby amiller92 » June 20th, 2015, 9:21 am

Also, put me in the camp (maybe I'm alone in this camp?) that wants this block turned into public space. I know money and The Commons and the park board etc but conceptually a "bookend" to Peavey Plaza (or Loring Park depending on your viewpoint) that could start to create some green connectivity to the river could be an amazing space.
I'm skeptical. Downtown needs people more than it needs more green space, and this spot is only a couple of blocks from existing park space along the river.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby amiller92 » June 20th, 2015, 9:33 am

None but the boldest of families are going to move downtown (anywhere) without three things within very close walking distance: grocery stores (full service), parks/play space and schools. Right now two out of three are (almost) non-existent and thus, there are very few families.
Which two? There are parks, which you've explained away as not "destinations," probably accurately. But people who live right across the street aren't looking for a destination, they are looking for park functions many of which are there (missing a playground).

And obviously there's a Whole Foods right there, and a pair of Lunds within a short drive (which is where a lot of families would start for groceries).
If we develop every possible site from the North Loop, through the Gateway District, Mill District to Seven Corners
We're a very long way from developing every possible site.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby John » June 20th, 2015, 11:31 am

Also, put me in the camp (maybe I'm alone in this camp?) that wants this block turned into public space. I know money and The Commons and the park board etc but conceptually a "bookend" to Peavey Plaza (or Loring Park depending on your viewpoint) that could start to create some green connectivity to the river could be an amazing space.
I'm skeptical. Downtown needs people more than it needs more green space, and this spot is only a couple of blocks from existing park space along the river.
The city's idea for this block is for partial green space anyways, if I remember the criteria for RFP's from the city correctly. Some of that space is to allow the proposed streetcar line to connect with Washington. I agree with you , there needs to be high density development on at least part of this block. That promotes more critical mass of people to support nearby retail etc, and increase pedestrian activity. Having a full block park here would create too much of a gap/empty space between the activity along Nicollet Mall and The North Loop. Those two areas really need to be better connected.

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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » June 22nd, 2015, 2:37 pm

Archopolis, We agree on some things and disagree on others, The old glass half full or empty syndrome.

There we part ways to a point. I can't see more open space when there is Loring Park to the south and the whole river front to the north. We have Peavey Plaza and the Commons as city owned open land that will be reworked in the coming years. We have Gateway Park, as much as you seem to hate it, is an established city park. While it has much to be desired. It also has a lot of potential. I see a lot or potential if the city will team with the Shorenstein to work to make the area at the end of Nicollet more friendly. See if we can maybe move some of the parking to underground and put a cap on it and cover with parkland. That would better open up the pathway between the north loop and the mill district along our lost 2nd street. There already is land, we just have to utilize it better. You will get no old growth trees on the Nicollet Block for 60+ years and you have a bunch right there in Gateway Park. Yes it is not well used, has poor layout, and somewhat feels like it is the corporate land. It is the city's responsibility to make this park work for it's citizens. There should be gathering areas, possible playground near where 2nd should run, and paths to invite people into the park with benches. The park's history may play into why it has become the forgotten park. But there is plenty of space to move people from Nicollet Ave to the plazas near 1st street thru new paths to the river front. There is no need to keep prime taxable land off the books for this reason. Until we work with what we have, how can we add more obligations to the park system that is already over burdened. There is not enough money now to keep neighborhood parks functioning.
Like I said, I agree with a lot of what you’ve said.

My central point is this:
Destinations that are dedicated to open space and play are lacking from the North Loop to Gold Medal Park and there are very few opportunities (that are city-owned) to do something about it. If we don’t want families downtown long-term then I guess that is fine but it seems that we are at a point of no return on the *possibility*.

If something creative and excellent could be done with Gateway Park then I could agree with your way of thinking but I’m having a hard time seeing it: feels like the “front yard” of Towers, small, oddly shaped, existing hardscape investment at the corner, no buffer to Hennepin… Now, if you want to integrate the “lost” 2nd St into this somehow then I think that we could be onto something. The negative history is so far in the past that it shouldn’t even be a barrier.

I agree that the park system is already strained and investment should be made to improve what we have first. BUT, my central point stands - if we don’t invest in these types of places, then we are saying that families are only welcome as short term visitors.

You identified Loring Park as a place for play and open space and I fully agree. The area surrounding Loring Park is dense (and has a pretty tall tower adjacent). Families aren’t the number one constituency here but at least it is *possible* to live in an urban way. I see the “north” end of Nicollet as having the same potential for dense, urban living. A nearby grocery store as well as the other amenities offered in downtown and the only thing missing is a great park. Before someone brings up the river, I’ll counter again that walking four-eight blocks with a couple of kids just to GET to a play space is not great.

See Wicker Park in Chicago…it isn’t a direct analog because it isn’t the “ragged edge” of a downtown CBD but the density, nearby fixed rail transit and proximity to a great park are fitting, and I think makes such urbanism possible - IF we plan for it.
I guess in a way I'm one of the royal "We's", in that I don't see family housing as being a priority downtown. I have no problem with people wanting to raise a family downtown, but I think the focus should be 2 bedroom or less.
I guess I’d ask, “Why? Why is this the default?”

I’m an idealist so I’m always looking at what I think an ideal could be and I think if 10-20% of the housing in Loring Park could be 3 bedrooms and that families could live carless, walk to Loring Park, walk to Lund’s for groceries and get a bite to eat on Nicollet, isn’t that a great way to characterize “walkable urbanism?” The way that you are defining it, multi-family housing AND walkable urbanism aren’t desirable and I ask again, “Why not?”
But if some 3 bedroom units fit on a floor plate
Not a problem.
and there is takers, more power to them.
“Takers” are a problem as long as the city doesn’t make it a priority.
I'll be up front in that I grew up in a smaller town and was what they call today a free-range kid. I'd bike to the park, to the swimming pool, take rides out onto the blacktops in the country alone or with my friends. But those day are long gone now, Would be hard to let your 6 year old walk from the Soo Line to Loring Park to play on their own. I'd have a hard enough time letting them here in the Wedge at on of the close parks.
I fully agree, it’s trickier now but should we just cede the point and say it is impossible?
…but families should feel apart of the city. My growing up perception is, kids need space to release energy.
YES! Let’s provide that space! Gold Medal Park works well, hopefully The Commons will work (eek!), but there is almost ZERO green space heading west until you get to North Minneapolis and south until you get to Elliot Park.
I hope that better explains why I feel the way I do and why I see no need to add space when we don't use what we already have. With some work and partnerships we can work to make the Gateway area an easier place to navigate and spend time in.
Your thoughts are reasonable and leaving the Nicollet Block for development (and thus added revenue) is sound. The idea to improve what we have sounds great if something special could be achieved at Gateway and 2nd and if that were the case, I'd completely abandon ideas about the Nicollet block being a park. I’d just like to see some *consideration* for family-friendly improvements in this part of town before it is too late…

Archiapolis
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby Archiapolis » June 22nd, 2015, 2:39 pm

Just throwing this stat out there because it's interesting to me: Last year there were 1290 condos sold in Minneapolis

0 BR - 27 units
1 BR - 454 units
2 BR - 744 units
3 BR - 59 units
4 BR - 5 units
5 BR - 1 unit

I wish I could compare this to denser cities. Anyway. Carry on.
I'd also like to see how this compares with availability of units in each type.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: Nicollet Hotel Block

Postby FISHMANPET » June 22nd, 2015, 2:45 pm

So, sort of devil's advocate, but why should there be families in this area? Why would a family choose this area when there are many very urban, dense, transit accessible neighborhoods both surrounding Downtown and in other areas of the city, that would be more appropriate to raise children in? And from the other side, why would the city want to make the trade off of less taxable lands for more parks or even just the kind of regulations and design reviews etc etc that would lead to 3 bedroom units and other things that would make the area more family friendly?


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