Stadium Parking Ramp Development Site - 25 stories / 294'

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mattaudio
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby mattaudio » January 30th, 2016, 1:36 pm

The Wilf's saved the Vikings for Minnesota
I'll have to send them a thank you card.

VikingFaninMaryland
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » January 30th, 2016, 1:45 pm

You're factually incorrect in roughly ten different ways. It's not surprising someone who doesn't live in Minnesota thinks the Vikings are only party whose interests should be considered by the mfsa. Minneapolis taxpayers deserve consideration.
It's Minneapolis's inability to generate tax revenue from a prized undeveloped parcel of land (made valuable prime real estate by the Vikings) - ready for development NOW, in a hot development zone TODAY - that is the interest most on point here - and the Vikings interest and Minneapolis taxpayers' interest on this point are aligned.

As important, from a Minneapolis tax payer perspective, is the creation of an entire enormous new source of tax revenue from of all the development in Downtown East that would not have occurred on this magnitude had the Vikings left downtown (for the xburbs or another location altogether).

Go ahead, lets see your "roughly ten different ways" that I'm factually incorrect - IN A MATERIAL WAY. Is there something in the water in Minnesota that makes your observations more true?
Last edited by VikingFaninMaryland on January 30th, 2016, 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

VikingFaninMaryland
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » January 30th, 2016, 1:49 pm

The Wilf's saved the Vikings for Minnesota
I'll have to send them a thank you card.
No, you'll be thanking them by calling them the MINNESOTA Vikings, going to a game in downtown MINNEAPOLIS from time to time, and watching them on TV.

VAStationDude
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VAStationDude » January 30th, 2016, 2:44 pm

You are completely wrong about the extent to which the Vikings contributed to the stadium. attributing the private contributions to the team when the vast majority is from the nfl and naming rights is highly dishonest and factually incorrect.

You're also parroting the same bull shit about the Wilfs being master real estate developers we've been hearing for the last decade. Ten years after buying the team and nearly four years since taxpayers and the nfl committed to building them a stadium, the only wilf development that's materialized is a practice facility and strp mall development in Eagan. We're five years into a multi family residential boom in Minneapolis and the Wilfs have done nothing. They're mall and suburban apartment developers. It's rich to rip Ryan, the visionaries behind the wells Fargo towers, while praising a development family who has done nothing other lobby for a public hand out.

The mfsa wouldn't allow reasonable accommodation for Ryan. They're holding up millions in development because they have unfortunate leverage provided by legislation.

HuskyGrad
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby HuskyGrad » January 30th, 2016, 3:04 pm

The Wilf's saved the Vikings for Minnesota
I'll have to send them a thank you card.
No, you'll be thanking them by calling them the MINNESOTA Vikings, going to a game in downtown MINNEAPOLIS from time to time, and watching them on TV.
I won't be doing either. The Wilfs original share $477 million share has been paid down by $125 million in seat licenses, $220 million in naming rights, and a $200 million loan in lieu of future revenue sharing payments. They've essentially put none of their own money into the project given their expected share has risen to $550 million. Whereas the public has $498 million invested in the stadium.

Sources:
http://www.startribune.com/vikings-fans ... 226546871/
http://www.twincities.com/2015/06/14/vi ... -u-s-bank/
http://www.upi.com/Sports_News/2013/03/ ... 363810904/
http://www.vikings.com/stadium/new-stadium/faq.html

acs
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby acs » January 30th, 2016, 3:35 pm

Keep in mind that while the NFL is technically a non-profit, the Vikings are not. That means from a state perspective they pay a lot of income taxes which would be gone if they ever left. For example, the team gained about $1B in value due to the stadium up to a total of $1.59B, when the team is sold that will generate $155 million in state revenue. Plus, net income of $34.5m/year taxed at 9.8% is $101m over 30 years. Ticket sales of $47m/year is $96m for 30 years, plus player payroll of $157m/year generates a whopping $463 million over 30 years.

Essentially the state breaks even by paying to keep the Vikings, however the city has no way of taxing those revenue streams since the stadium pays no property taxes, so Minneapolis by far got the worse part of the deal.

trigonalmayhem

Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby trigonalmayhem » January 30th, 2016, 4:50 pm

Minneapolis getting screwed by the state government is kind of par for the course, though. It's a convenient source of tax money and because of the obscene level of control the state government exerts on local matters within the city there's pretty much nothing we can do about it.

VikingFaninMaryland
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » January 30th, 2016, 5:25 pm

You are completely wrong about the extent to which the Vikings contributed to the stadium. attributing the private contributions to the team when the vast majority is from the nfl and naming rights is highly dishonest and factually incorrect.

You're also parroting the same bull shit about the Wilfs being master real estate developers we've been hearing for the last decade. Ten years after buying the team and nearly four years since taxpayers and the nfl committed to building them a stadium, the only wilf development that's materialized is a practice facility and strp mall development in Eagan. We're five years into a multi family residential boom in Minneapolis and the Wilfs have done nothing. They're mall and suburban apartment developers. It's rich to rip Ryan, the visionaries behind the wells Fargo towers, while praising a development family who has done nothing other lobby for a public hand out.

The mfsa wouldn't allow reasonable accommodation for Ryan. They're holding up millions in development because they have unfortunate leverage provided by legislation.
1) The private debt on the stadium is the Vikings’ debt. Who they take loans from and how they choose to pay it down is a business decision on their part. The Wilfs are liable for the entire private debt and it will be their money - including a current ownership right in a future revenue stream that they currently own - that pays for it. To which -
  • - - The NFL gave the Vikings a low interest loan as per NFL policy. The Vikings hold the debt on this loans and will have to pay it off. As it relates to third parties receiving private-side payment on the stadium, that money will come from the Vikings.

    - - The rule is that professional franchises are given the naming rights to the stadiums, parks and arenas they play in, which they then give to the highest bidder for a price, oftentimes, in part, to pay down their stadium debt. The Vikings own the naming rights - it is their property as is the revenue stream that flows from it. That they use the naming rights to pay down the debt is their business decision. If the Vikings did not use the funds do pay down the debt, they could pocket that money because it is their’s - and not someone else’s.

    - - Say what you will about seat licenses, they have become standard industry practice in professional sports, especially the NFL, and the Vikings hit was substantially less than say, Atlanta’s for the same seat licenses. The Vikings are a business that sells a form of entertainment. When they sold the licenses, it was to parties willing to pay for them in private transactions. The Vikings had little problem selling the licenses. Nobody was damaged. Nobody had a gun to their head. The funds raised by the seat licenses belong to the Vikings. Its their money. If they didn’t use it to pay down the debt, they could pocket it. Its not someone else’s money.
That the Wilf’s business model allows them to trade on the power of their NFL brand to rapidly buy down the debt doesn’t change the fact that the funds to do so are the Vikings. There is nothing dishonest or disreputable about these business decisions and there is no error in pointing them out. What the Wilfs are guilty of here are sound business practices that allows for the rapid discharge of debt. You can add to this practice the selling of lesser naming rights for Polaris, Miller Beer, EconoLabs, etc. that have the intended additional benefit of highlighting Minnesota industry to the world.

When the Wilf’s took on the original share of $477 million, they already knew they would be taking on an additional $100 million. There were more than a few articles that spoke of how team owners spent large volumes of money after construction began that anticipated the Wilf’s springing for more.

2) I did not parrot any line. I said “the Wilf fortune comes from being a real estate and development powerhouse.” This is true as a matter of fact. Just go online and pull a Dunn and Bradstreet report on them. I did not say the Wilfs were active in Minnesota. Until they got commitments for a stadium, why would they increase their presence in Minnesota? Strip mall? How about a major multi-hundreds-of millions project for a state of the art HQ and related commercial and residential development. How about the fact that they were denied when asking to rebid on MFSA’s parking ramp proposal when Ryan failed to convert on theirs? That included residential.

“Rip Ryan”? Did I say something untrue? I don’t have a problem with Ryan. But in this instance, they failed to perform and the project should reasonably have been reopened to rebidding. Lest we forget, the decision to move forward on the Ryan plan for WF was triggered by the Vikings committing to remaining at their current location.

3) “Reasonable accommodation”? Its not that simple. The MSFA parking ramp is a creature of specific legislation whose design incorporates substantial government sponsored traffic pattern analysis designed to optimize its usage in its current form. This type of analysis always includes the number and location ingress/egress locations. For the MSFA to accept Ryan’s request would have triggered (in all probability) a requirement to go to the legislature that then would have called for a new traffic pattern analysis that would have set the plan back. (I don’t know that the MSFA would have taken such action, only that it would have been reasonable and possibly necessary for them to do so owing to the state interest.)
As noted, I said I was agnostic to the effects of such a change on traffic patterns largely because I don’t know. What I do know about downtown traffic patterns is that it cannot be assumed that it was a “reasonable accommodation” just because someone said so and the MSFA would have been derelict in its duties had it simply agreed to the change - even if that decision advantaged the Vikings.

That’s not “unfortunate leverage,” its the the statutory requirements mandated by the development plan that Ryan accepted that all others had to abide when submitting their bids as well. “Holding up what development”? Its hardly clear that Ryan’s proposed developer dropped out because of the access question and it would have been wrong for Ryan to hold out the probabilities of success based on an unrealized contingency on a development program beholden to a statutory and regulatory regime.

When taking about the pathological dislike for the Wilfs, this is what I mean.

Still waiting for one of those material errors of fact.

On a different note, Minneapolis succeeds by getting a rapidly developed Downtown East at a heightened density level that will bring in a high volume of new tax revenue. Not money from the stadium itself, but from the development it played a large role is supercharging. There is also a reasonable expectation that the stadium will be used outside of football roughly 300 days/year and the revenue that arises from it in hotel / restaurant usage both in terms of jobs and taxes. If the stadium can score 2 or 3 large events a year, that would leave MPLS in a very good place. Finally, there is the free media advertising of the city from nationally televised events that it just can’t pay for. Over time, Minneapolis may be one of the biggest beneficiaries.
Last edited by VikingFaninMaryland on January 30th, 2016, 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MNdible
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby MNdible » January 30th, 2016, 5:30 pm

IIRC, the new stadium will be covered by the city's entertainment tax, while the Metrodome was specifically excluded from this. So there's some new revenue.

And one can argue how catalytic the stadium was to the redevelopment of the surrounding properties, but there's a pretty strong case to be made that it was. And obviously, there's a lot of increased property taxable value that's going to be hitting the books in the next couple of years.

EDIT: See also crazy post above.

VAStationDude
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VAStationDude » January 30th, 2016, 6:40 pm

Jesus.

So we're to count seat licenses, naming rights and a diversion of stadium revenues that would have gone to the nfl to pay off the league "loan" as contributions by the team? the team took out loans against those revenue sources. Big deal. There was near zero risk to the lenders or the Vikings. If you actually believe that the Vikings contributed any of money from those three big pots you have zero objectivity and credibility. (Not that you remarking a team with one playoff victory in eleven years is building a dynasty didn't make that clear already)

I don't disagree the stadium has been a catalyst. Minneapolis has gotten more benefit than I had anticipated in 2012. However, I'm not going to thank the Wilfs. They have stadium and parking revenue from a football palace with minimal capital expenditure. I'll credit the people of Minnesota who, through regressive sales tax and forgone state general fund revenue, built the stadium.

I really don't care what happens in Eagan. Building a team practice facility used to recruit free agents and house revenue generating training camps isn't an altruistic gesture. It's a business move and a hideous suburban one.

Don't believe for a second the team couldn't have modified the ramp ingress and egress without the described legislative action.

I hope for your sake Mark and Zygi don't encounter any dog feces under foot as they navigate the sidewalks of snowy North Jersey.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby min-chi-cbus » January 30th, 2016, 8:56 pm

DTE is booming because of the park, much more than the stadium. That, and the addition of tge Green Line. If there were no park, DTE (save the Mills District area) would look about the same as it did during the Dome era. I'm not against the stadium but i dont think its a big development draw.

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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VAStationDude » January 30th, 2016, 9:34 pm

Wells Fargo and the ramps made the park possible and wells Fargo was possible because of the ramps. It's all the same package. The stadium clearly made all of it happen. It's debatable if the stadium was a good policy decision from the perspective of non football fans in Minneapolis.

What isn't in dispute is the Vikings ineptitude as an nfl franchise. Instead of building a successful team through the draft the Vikings have consistently flubed first round picks. I count two objectively good first round picks since serial child abuser Adrian Peterson was drafted. Their big free agent signings are Mike Wallace and Greg Jennings. Despite obvious failures Vikings lousy ownership have doubled down on an inept front office.

It's sad otherwise sound adults devote a significant part of their well being to the fate of an obviously dysfunctional team.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby min-chi-cbus » January 30th, 2016, 10:06 pm

Wells Fargo and the ramps made the park possible and wells Fargo was possible because of the ramps. It's all the same package. The stadium clearly made all of it happen. It's debatable if the stadium was a good policy decision from the perspective of non football fans in Minneapolis.

What isn't in dispute is the Vikings ineptitude as an nfl franchise. Instead of building a successful team through the draft the Vikings have consistently flubed first round picks. I count two objectively good first round picks since serial child abuser Adrian Peterson was drafted. Their big free agent signings are Mike Wallace and Greg Jennings. Despite obvious failures Vikings lousy ownership have doubled down on an inept front office.

It's sad otherwise sound adults devote a significant part of their well being to the fate of an obviously dysfunctional team.
Wells is possible because of the promised park. The residential development is there because of the park. If the city dangled a Vikings stadium in front of Wells Fargo and there was no park, no way does that development occur. And I'll agree that without the promise of the super bowl and NCAA final four there may be some hotel projects that don't happen, but that's about it.

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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby EOst » January 30th, 2016, 10:31 pm

But the park wouldn't have happened without the Stadium. This is circular.

Daboink
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Daboink » January 30th, 2016, 11:35 pm

To paraphrase a certain cranky old politician, the citizens of this forum are sick and tired of hearing about your damn chicken or the egg, stadium or the park development complaints! ;-)

Can we move on please?

VikingFaninMaryland
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » January 31st, 2016, 1:04 am

To paraphrase a certain cranky old politician, the citizens of this forum are sick and tired of hearing about your damn chicken or the egg, stadium or the park development complaints! ;-)

Can we move on please?
Actually no. This is not a question of chicken or egg on the unresolvable issues of the universe. There is no question but that the stadium drove the larger DTE development and this is important because it determines who will prevail in a whole series of possible legal actions should they arise. Neither the developers, the legislature nor the gov't planners would argue this point.

More immediately, on the question of air-rights over the MSFA-owned parking ramp, the question of origination is of immediate relevance because it will determine the outcome of specific disputes in question, which are fact driven, relate to specific legislation giving rise to the development, and effect how one is to understand the nature and driving influence of the DTE development, including the priority of rights and preferences built into the legislation that brought the development into existence.

For example, the ramp was built by the MSFA for the purpose of providing parking for the Stadium. Its secondary goal was to spur development, which it did. The MSFA (not the Vikings) owns the ramp and the stadium. A creature of legislation, the MSFA only exists to oversee the building and maintenance of the stadium and associated properties and property rights. As someone noted, WF would not have located there had there not been the parking. Hence, WF was contingent on the MSFA activities.

Another example. Ryan, and through them WF, built on land that was encumbered by restrictions created by the legislation creating the MSFA for the purpose of building the Viking stadium. Lost in the discussion earlier this week when it was reported that the Vikings lost the first round because they could not get an injunction to stop WF signage was the judges strong suggestion that WF would probably lose at trial if the Vikings could prove damages. This only means that the judge was waiting for U.S. Bank to publicly demand that the Vikings reduce the cost of their exclusive naming rights agreement so that the Vikings could then turn around and then claim actual damages - at which point an injection would probably be approved if requested - and all but seal the fate of WF at trial. If U.S. Bank does not come forward, there will be no damages for the Vikings to claim. The Vikings may still prevail owing the fact that exclusive rights were granted, but at a much attenuated level.

As it relates to this discussion, the Vikings could make no claim of damages to exclusive naming rights had not the legislature granted such rights - which they did - so that the Vikings could then hold Ryan (and through them WF) accountable to them in legal action that could only occur if the Vikings had prior existing rights in the first place. On a more popular level, this question goes to whether the Vikings are whining or whether they actually have an articulable legal claim based on having actual property rights. (It turns out that they do) But this means that its the Stadium development that framed the DTE development from the beginning.

Returning to the air-rights over the stadium parking ramp, you are asking to move past the sine qua non question on the issue.

min-chi-cbus
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby min-chi-cbus » January 31st, 2016, 8:32 am

I was curious if there was an answer, and this is what I found (for starters):

http://tcbmag.com/Industries/Real-Estat ... wn-East-De

It mentions a confluence of factors that all came together at once, but it also states this:
For Wells Fargo, the new urban park was a linchpin without which the project could not have fallen into place.
And, to your point, it also states this:
Ironically, for an area choking on surface parking, a planned new parking ramp proved a key piece of catnip for the developers.
And then this:
Could the deal have been done without city financing help?

“No, it probably could not have gone forward,” Ryan’s Collins allows. “It could not have proceeded.

I know that's just one source, and there may not be a concrete answer, so it's also just my opinion (it's okay if we don't agree).

Didier
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Didier » January 31st, 2016, 10:04 am

It's true that the parking ramp directly affected the four-block Wells Fargo development, as did the potential to build a park there.

What no one can reasonably say is whether development in general would have occurred without the stadium. Reasonably, one can say that some development would have occurred when the Metrodome fate was sealed one way or another. And one can pretty confidently say that a Vikings stadium anywhere else in the Twin Cities would likely mean much slower progress in DTE, since the Metrodome would just now be coming down and there wouldn't be a billion dollar investment anchoring the greater redevelopment.

But I'm pretty sure Vikingsfan is making a much more specific argument in relation to how the stadium affects the Wells Fargo signage. I just wasn't able to fully digest the last post yet because I'm standing at my counter eating waffles as I read this on my phone.

VikingFaninMaryland
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby VikingFaninMaryland » January 31st, 2016, 3:48 pm

It's true that the parking ramp directly affected the four-block Wells Fargo development, as did the potential to build a park there.

What no one can reasonably say is whether development in general would have occurred without the stadium. Reasonably, one can say that some development would have occurred when the Metrodome fate was sealed one way or another. And one can pretty confidently say that a Vikings stadium anywhere else in the Twin Cities would likely mean much slower progress in DTE, since the Metrodome would just now be coming down and there wouldn't be a billion dollar investment anchoring the greater redevelopment.

But I'm pretty sure Vikingsfan is making a much more specific argument in relation to how the stadium affects the Wells Fargo signage. I just wasn't able to fully digest the last post yet because I'm standing at my counter eating waffles as I read this on my phone.
While it would be foolish to say there would have been no development, there is simply no question that the level, size and timing of the DTE development is specifically and directly tied to the decision to relocate the stadium. There were no funds to immediately tear down the Metrodome, the MSFA would have had no reason to exist and there would have been on state interest in building the parking. The very structure of the DTE redevelopment, including clearing out the StarTribune building, building a park (that would have been to nowhere had it not fronted the Stadium), and the specific legislation was pegged on DTE getting the "iconic" (an overused term) stadium that could centerpiece the entire district. There is just too much of a public record on the sequencing of events based on legislation, etc.

One would be very hard pressed to show that WF, the clearing of the StarTribine and the Metronome, the building of a parking ramp was in any way set to go regardless of there being a stadium.

The U.S. Bank Stadium was the recognized pivot point.

Didier
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Re: Stadium Parking Ramp Air Rights Development

Postby Didier » January 31st, 2016, 6:23 pm

That's not at all what I'm saying, though.

Yes, the high-profile projects being built right now are in some ways interconnected. But that doesn't mean development would only have occurred here with a stadium.


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