urbanMSP

Ehh? Have you seen the proposals? What makes them so insipid? I'm pretty sure we almost got stuck with a block sized parking ramp with nothing above it.

I think this is really the fundamental thing to keep in mind. We haven't seen the plans yet. Maybe Ryan's apartment tower is beautiful and iconic, a modern Foshay Tower. Maybe Mortenson's hotel is a cut-down Centre Village. Probably the reality is somewhere in between. Probably the ideal plan would be to let this block remain empty for now, so when DTE takes off, a truly iconic building could be built in this prime location. But the ramp is happening, and our option here is a maybe awesome, maybe mediocre mixed-use building, or Gateway Ramp II: Electric Boogaloo.

^^^ You have a good reasonable viewpoint. IMO, the proposal above the ramp is really less significant than to what happens to the periphery at the street level. This is what will really impact DTE and help make it a pedestrian friendly district. I thought the city had expressed a desire to wrap retail around the ramp as part of the developer's proposal. I hope that isn't put on the back burner. Having one restaurant doesn't cut it.

Lackluster proposals both of them. Same old, same old in the city of 10,000 overpriced apartments and interstate hotel chains. It's not so much the developers, but the city that needs to facilitate a better response for a more ambitious project for this ramp. It's hard to figure out, but I think something is scaring away the developers on a national level.

This is insane. In a literal sense. This area is a *wasteland.*

No one was building the 50 story lord of the rings replica tower you guys wanted. There aren't that many orcs (or elves?) in minneapolis anyways.

I've said that was pretend from the beginning

http://www.thedmna.org/wp-content/uploa ... 03-141.pdf The Downtown Minneapolis Neighborhood Association has this on its agenda tonight at the Library. I think it starts at 6; they'll probably show the renderings there - anybody going to that?

I think the Ryan proposal and Ryan cos in general have a better interest in this whole neighborhood being successful and would put out a better addition here, even if it means phasing the constitution of the rest of the apartments.

That is sound reasoning, and it makes sense. If Ryan already has $400M invested interest in the micro area in DTE then anything they add to the area would have to gel well with the surrounding development and they of all developers would take a much higher vested interest in making sure the project succeeded. That, or maybe their thinking is they can afford to gamble on some shoddy apartment tower knowing that it's essentially anchored by the Wells Fargo portion of the project.

The only downside I can see with the tower proposal is that the new neighborhood isn't growing as organically as I may like, with multiple different developers and building types and uses.

^^^ You have a good reasonable viewpoint. IMO, the proposal above the ramp is really less significant than to what happens to the periphery at the street level. This is what will really impact DTE and help make it a pedestrian friendly district. I thought the city had expressed a desire to wrap retail around the ramp as part of the developer's proposal. I hope that isn't put on the back burner. Having one restaurant doesn't cut it.

From the Strib article...

"plus street-level restaurants and retail space for a vacant strip of land next to the ramp."

A 28 story apartment building with restaurants (plural) and retail isn't a good option?

Maybe the right question is, what do you envision being a good proposal for this parcel?

I agree with John on that point. A proposal which concentrates all the active uses on 4th is not a good option. But I don't think that's what we'll see since the city has already resisted that.

I've said that was pretend from the beginning

I didn't mean it as a shot at you. I don't have any problem with the skyline-oriented mindset or fantasy proposals or whatever. But the constant development bashing is getting old.

Can't say 100% I'll be there, but I'm going to make the effort to get there for that meeting.

From the Strib article...

"plus street-level restaurants and retail space for a vacant strip of land next to the ramp."

A 28 story apartment building with restaurants (plural) and retail isn't a good option?

Maybe the right question is, what do you envision being a good proposal for this parcel?

I think the point people are making here is that the southern strip of the parking ramp block having retail/restaurants is great, but it leaves 3 block faces as parking. The infusion of people, whether hotel guests or more permanent residents, will be very welcome, but if the building turns its back on the streets and neighborhoods that's a bad thing. My understanding is that the parking ramp size (meeting the sidewalk on 3 sides) is already fixed, which is too bad if Ryan (the ramp builder) were to also win the contract for air rights, and the amount of public money going into the ramp and skyway link. The way the tower looks above the 4th story is icing on the cake for me if the street level is done right. I'm hoping the city tries to flex some muscle in this process to improve the public realm.

While the Ryan proposal, on its own, is the more interesting proposal, I think it would make more sense to select the Mortenson proposal. Ryan have already committed to a huge project next to this, with multiple phases that may or may not all materialize; their apartment proposal for this site seems likely to reduce the chance of the apartments in the other project materializing, since they would directly compete for the same vacancy. Also, Many of us have expressed before the problem of massive master-planning by one developer, and giving this plot also to Ryan would increase the chance of master-planned sameness permeating this entire area.

I do wonder though if perhaps the other builders didn't make proposals at least in part because it looked like another shoe-in for Ryan, and they didn't want to waste their time and money bidding.

I think the Mortenson proposal, while not the most exciting, would be a nice different use from the neighboring Ryan proposal and would introduce a different mix of designers and architects to the area.

People who complain about this not being some tremendous proposal aren't wrong, but there's a small window of time here to allow this site that would otherwise just be a huge parking ramp to become something better. The whole area is being grown speculatively, and on a short timeline it's hard for developers to risk too much on such speculation. Either of these will turn a passive use into an active use, which is good.

I'd tend to lean towards the hotel option, all other things being equal, because it's introducing another user type to the area and should play well off of the other uses, increasing the overall vitality. Hotel visitors are more likely to use restaurants and bars than are residents. The hotel also benefits more from the skyway connection than would a residential tower, I think.

Remember that the city gets to essentially pocket the cash for this air rights deal, so it's a big win that there are two significant proposals here to choose from.

Are people clear -- I've read a couple of vague things that seemed to suggest that the hotel proposal may also be building on top of the underground ramp next to the LRT station as well?

As I've said before, that plot of land above the underground garage as park land is a real waste. There will have to be very high fences along the LRT to keep people from jumping the fence onto the tracks. There can really be no crossing from this parcel to the stadium without worrying about the safety of people vs the LRT. That will have to be done at the ends of, or should I say corners of the block. If you are relaxing in a park, do you want to listen to train's wheels screech, buzzers going off every 5 minutes or so once the Blue line is up and running? Better use is to put that back on the tax rolls as a hotel property which would be less than 2 blocks from HCMC. I'd be more for the housing at this point I think. Will see after tonight's meeting if I still feel the same way tomorrow.

Maybe Ryan could swap the air rights with Stanton and he can build the Eclipse here and get all the parking he wants. Then Ryan could build a project that complements their 222 development and creates a nice gateway to the North Loop!

^ That's awesome, John.

Hell will freeze over before that happens!! LOL

Hell will freeze over before that happens!! LOL

Well, we do live in the coldest city in the US!

I was really surprised to see that there was not a hotel AND residential mixed use for this site, seems to me to be a great spot for something like that.
I'm curious to see the design plans but the Eyeore side of me thinks I'll be pretty disappointed.

I was really surprised to see that there was not a hotel AND residential mixed use for this site, seems to me to be a great spot for something like that.
I'm curious to see the design plans but the Eyeore side of me thinks I'll be pretty disappointed.

Seems like a perfectly logical idea and should have been what was brought to the table.

Neither of these proposals will compliment the stadium is my guess, dwelling units seldom are unique or iconic in their looks. Bummer. If only they'd add an office component to it as well. I think something like the London Shard would look great next to the new stadium.

Hopefully someone with a digital will be at the meeting also. As I don't have one at the moment. But am looking forward to seeing what is on the drawing boards.