Nicollet Mall

[min-chi-cbus]

Actually, I thought their curt examples were refreshing, compared to your typical holier-than-thou "I don't see color" BS that's more politically correct. In addition, I think they bring up some interesting points that I bet many here can relate with or were curious about. What I garnered from their anecdotes is that a.) their preconceived notions and experiences this far in life did not necessarily prepare them for cultures outside their own once those notions became experiences, and b.) they admitted that their Initial reactions to these experiences were unnecessary in most cases, and they learned something that they fear many/most averages suburban hermits may not be as comfortable in dealing with, which could make any attempts at improving the Nicollet Ave aesthetic moot -- without more insight.

I guess I just didn't see the malice in their words that you did, or willful naïveté.

[Creole4u]

Humm.... min-chi-cbus... Its interesting how defensive my post made you. I NEVER made any "holier-than-thou "I don't see color" BS" implications. All I did was simply point out some broad ignorance (that seems to surface regularly on this board). Although you might think curt examples of bigotry are refreshing, I personally do not - My response was both respectful and reasonable. If my words struck some chords within you, perhaps you need to do some further introspection.

[grant1simons2]

Oh my god can we get back on topic? Maybe move this to the race and inequality thread?

[Rich]

I’m reading things like “it made me uncomfortable; I was worried; it stressed me out like you wouldn't believe; I felt the need to remain vigilant” and “actual fear of my own personal safety.”

I also see “blacks are more likely to make a ruckus; there pretty clearly is a behavior issue; a bit of it is mental illness, but most of it's not” and “a mild fight-or-flight response kicked in.”

And yet the argument still seems to be that Betty Burnsville is the one who’s nervous and narrow-minded.

[FISHMANPET]

Should we hold black people to no standard of behavior because they're black?

Also since you called my quotes out specifically, not all the people in my story were black. But I guess you just assumed that all the miscreants were black people?

[Nathan]

Can we just not, here.

I believe we're having the race and discrimination conversations a few other places on the board. Pack up your pride and keep on subject here people.

[trigonalmayhem]

On the one hand, I agree that I don't really want messy talk that exposes otherwise reasonable people's hidden racism ... But on the other hand this issue is very intertwined with the nicollet mall project. Its use as a transit hub, shopping district and general public gathering place means it creates a mix of very different people with very different backgrounds. Throwing some new pavers and public art down isn't going to change that. But the particulars of its design and how that relates to its uses and users is very relevant and there is the potential to improve or degrade the situation with this project.

[acs]

Since when did the Nicollet Mall reconstruction become a social equity project? Businesses are footing half the cost for increased commercial activity, not to lift blacks out of poverty by changing perceptions of them.

[Tyler]

Although you might think curt examples of bigotry are refreshing, I personally do not - My response was both respectful and reasonable.

Yes. Instead of engaging in discussion -- your drive-by "ignorance at its finest!" comment was respectful and reasonable.

But I would like to know how acknowledging cultural/behavioral differences between groups of people is ignorance? Or bigotry for that matter? Is it only bigotry when those differences can be perceived as negative? Is it being wise and aware to pretend the differences don't exist?

Perhaps you did not understand my point -- which was that America's culture of racism is responsible for many of these distinct cultural/behavioral differences. That the expectation for a group of people treated like second-class citizens to behave exactly as the ruling class does is absurd. Hence my quotes around the word "problem."

[trigonalmayhem]

Since when did the Nicollet Mall reconstruction become a social equity project? Businesses are footing half the cost for increased commercial activity, not to lift blacks out of poverty by changing perceptions of them.

Since it's still a public street and functions as a transit hub for a very diverse population that extends well beyond the businesses and their employees. Just ignoring the needs of a huge group of people won't make them magically disappear. Unless you want to turn nicollet mall into a private space like the MOA that serves no god before commerce.

[FISHMANPET]

Also not sure why (and I'm guilty of it here too) we all have to race to claim someone else's statements as the most racist.

[twincitizen]

I'd prefer not to move this conversation elsewhere, so let's try to keep it at least tangential to Nicollet Mall. We're pushing it, but this conversation is interesting.

[EOst]

Like any other daily user of Nicollet Mall, I have seen "sketchy" black people engaging in behavior that made me uncomfortable. Yelling, roughhousing, running, drug use, whatever.

But I also see sketchy white people doing the same thing there, every day. In fact, white people are the only people who have ever explicitly threatened me or those I was with on the Mall or on Hennepin. The way some people make this all about "black people" (especially imputing this to a problem with "black culture") is in some ways, I think, the most revealing part of this conversation.

[trigonalmayhem]

Honestly one of my biggest concerns about this project is that from all the renderings I've seen it looks like they're just trying to white wash the mall into a sidewalk cafe infested playground for downtown yuppies and have given little to no thought about how it also functions as the central transit hub for all local transit routes in the city--including the ones that serve communities of people who don't work downtown. I'm still waiting in horror to see what sad useless bus shelter designs they're going to throw up.

[acs]

Newsflash for you social justice warriors: Those yuppies and families are the ones making and spending the money to subsidize the lives of the poor and minorities. Don't bite the hand that feeds you or you can kiss this urban renaissance goodbye.

[Didier]

Oh come on.

[FISHMANPET]

I'm sorry that you think that any discussion of civil rights or race matters in any context is "social justice warriors." I'm not even sure what hand is being bitten here? Who is biting? I'm not even sure what point you're arguing for/against here. What do yuppies and families have to do with anything here?

Seriously, what the hell are you talking about?

Or are you just uncomfortable talking about the social implications of public space, and would rather opine over tall buildings?

[UrsusUrbanicus]

I also see “blacks are more likely to make a ruckus; there pretty clearly is a behavior issue; a bit of it is mental illness, but most of it's not” and “a mild fight-or-flight response kicked in.”

And yet the argument still seems to be that Betty Burnsville is the one who’s nervous and narrow-minded.

A, fight or flight is a reference to an involuntary, pre-conscious reaction. B, the reaction was to loud and boisterous sound overheard at an unknown distance, not to the sight of members of a different race. C, I thought I'd made the point fairly clearly that the acquisition of cultural context is what allows for cognitive processing to override one's initial reactions (whatever their source). I'm advocating *against* yielding to sensitive initial reactions, whether in one's own mind or in society at large. Perhaps I should have tied the argument together by placing this in more explicit contrast to overpolicing (which is precisely what I fear might happen if we don't acquire, and encourage one another to acquire, the cultural context that comes from spending time in large, diverse groups). Basically, I was just stating that we shouldn't build a policing philosophy around the proposition that a sight subjectively unusual to some is objectively problematic for all.

[John]

I live on Nicollet Mall , and many of my neighbors and I agree that having a very visible presence of "beat cops" downtown walking the streets ( including Nicollet Mall) would create a safer environment and better perception of security downtown. It would raise the behavioral expectations and tone down some of the unruly behaviors that have been elaborated on in this thread.

Also, Nicollet Mall as the hub of public transportation in the city needs to be revamped. The transit routes downtown need to be spread out to decrease the overcrowding at certain bus stops which no doubt encourages loitering and unruly behavior.

I do think we should have higher expectations and values as a community re: respectful public behavior in our downtown. I know this makes some people upset, but quite frankly making this a racial/socio-economic issue is bogus and an excuse for people not to take personal responsibility for their actions or behavior.

[Wedgeguy]

Like any other daily user of Nicollet Mall, I have seen "sketchy" black people engaging in behavior that made me uncomfortable. Yelling, roughhousing, running, drug use, whatever.

But I also see sketchy white people doing the same thing there, every day. In fact, white people are the only people who have ever explicitly threatened me or those I was with on the Mall or on Hennepin. The way some people make this all about "black people" (especially imputing this to a problem with "black culture") is in some ways, I think, the most revealing part of this conversation.

I have to agree with your statement. Maybe I'm just thick skinned, or old enough that I don't get hassled or asked if I want drug. Or maybe it is the fact I'll walk by with my head up and with confidence that they know that they will not bother me as I'll just blow them off. IF there are issues I walk around them, If approached I'll do what I have to let them know I'm not interest in what ever they have to offer, that I don't have extra money and then just walk away.
I see these issues from all different groups of people, white, black, Native American. The only groups that I've not seen with issues is the Latino and Asian communities as far as bad behavior. The economic is what drive the problems on the mall. When people have jobs they are not hangin out causing problems.