Nicollet Mall

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Austinite
Metrodome
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Joined: August 10th, 2020, 9:50 am

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby Austinite » November 17th, 2020, 7:46 pm

Hmmmm - the increase in violence downtown has been mounting for several years - shootings/muggings in the warehouse district/Hennepin Avenue late at night/early mornings, aggressive panhandling and public intoxication on Nicollet...all increasing before COVID and before everything shut down and people eft downtown. Some of these may not have been considered "crimes" or "violent", but they did contribute to increasing perceptions of lack of public safety and the city really didn't do much at the time to address it except add extra police/sheriff county deputies to patrol the streets who whenever I saw them, were glued to one spot, basically chatting with one another and not doing anything.

John
Capella Tower
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby John » November 17th, 2020, 10:39 pm

Austinite, I think you're absolutely right. Covid and George Floyd aside, some of the uptick in crime this summer has been festering for years, particularly around the LRT Station at 5th and Hennepin. My hunch is having Hennepin Ave closed for reconstruction has moved some of the unruly crowds/behavior over to Nicollet Mall from Hennepin. Target is about the only place to hang out and have an audience. Truthfully in my 40 years of living here, downtown has always had a concentration of a few city blocks that were dicey. In the 70's and 80's it was Block E and the surrounding area. Washington Ave was a huge skid row before it was mostly bulldozed in the 50's. Just seems to be a fact of big city life.

SurlyLHT
Foshay Tower
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby SurlyLHT » November 18th, 2020, 9:57 am

I have some hope. If MPD isn't depleted in the budget process and the violence prevention folks hit the ground running after organizing over the winter we have a chance of stopping the current trends we're seeing Downtown. Further, there will be more people Downtown and some of the sports and etc will be back. If you live into the city call into the Budget meetings coming up in December or leave a comment here: http://www2.minneapolismn.gov/budget/budget-comments

alexschief
US Bank Plaza
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Location: Philadelphia

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby alexschief » November 18th, 2020, 9:57 am

Look, your perception is your perception. But a lot of this data is available online, and in just searching through the numbers for Downtown West, I can't see any evidence to suggest a trend of rising crime in past years.

For instance...
- In 2015 there were 493 violent crimes and 2,244 property crimes in Downtown West.
- In 2016 there were 440 violent crimes and 2,138 property crimes in Downtown West.
- In 2017 there were 490 violent crimes and 1,979 property crimes in Downtown West.
- In 2018, there were 365 violent crimes and 1,654 property crimes in Downtown West.
- In 2019, there were 442 violent crimes and 2,230 property crimes in Downtown West.

I'm certainly willing to buy that this is a perception and not a reality issue, especially since COVID, when the real number of crimes has plummeted, but without as much activity, the perception of danger has increased. But as part of a longer trend, I'm not sure I see it.

uptownbro
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby uptownbro » November 18th, 2020, 10:02 am

I think the bigger issue or cause is that in the social media age everyone knows everything that happens. One person gets mugged downtown and its all over facebook. A violent crime occurs and its all over snap chat. Even 5 years ago this didnt happen as much but I get an update every time something happens big or small now.
There have been times I got texts from friends and family members due to a car break in in uptown near my place asking if I was alright.
Last edited by uptownbro on November 18th, 2020, 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

SurlyLHT
Foshay Tower
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby SurlyLHT » November 18th, 2020, 10:04 am

Look, your perception is your perception. But a lot of this data is available online, and in just searching through the numbers for Downtown West, I can't see any evidence to suggest a trend of rising crime in past years.

For instance...
- In 2015 there were 493 violent crimes and 2,244 property crimes in Downtown West.
- In 2016 there were 440 violent crimes and 2,138 property crimes in Downtown West.
- In 2017 there were 490 violent crimes and 1,979 property crimes in Downtown West.
- In 2018, there were 365 violent crimes and 1,654 property crimes in Downtown West.
- In 2019, there were 442 violent crimes and 2,230 property crimes in Downtown West.

I'm certainly willing to buy that this is a perception and not a reality issue, especially since COVID, when the real number of crimes has plummeted, but without as much activity, the perception of danger has increased. But as part of a longer trend, I'm not sure I see it.
Perception matters more than the numbers especially when the IDS Center is boarded up along with surrounding buildings.

uptownbro
Metrodome
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby uptownbro » November 18th, 2020, 10:11 am

Perception is far more powerful then the numbers to most people. 538 did a great story on this a while back
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ma ... yre-wrong/

You can tell people the odds of a crime but if they think a place is unsafe they wont go and the boarded up stores that are open feed into this.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby amiller92 » November 18th, 2020, 11:40 am

The idea we can abolish or reduce the size of the police department is insane. So is the idea that policing doesn't need reform. There are too many bad people, and too many bad cops. Something like a licensure board requirement for police, increased education requirements and an increased salary seem like good starting ideas.
I think the problem for Minneapolis is that they have basically already done a lot of the things that you are supposed to do. Police officers are licensed. Use of force procedures have been heavily modified. Body cameras have been implemented. Officers have gotten lots of specialized training. Minneapolis was actually one of only six cities in the country that was part of a pilot program, called the "National Initiative for Building Community Trust and Justice" in which every police officer received several days worth of new training on implicit bias, procedural justice, and other issues. You could've argued that the city was really a national leader in police reform.

If you've got a fresh idea about how to reform the existing police force, you should let your councilmember know. My bet is that it's already been tried. I think many people don't know how far Minneapolis has already gone to reform the MPD, and how little it seems to have mattered. The fact that two of the four cops who killed George Floyd were new to the force, having gone through some of the best training in the country, and still were frozen and unable to intervene really speaks (to me at least) to the depth of culture issues in the department and the impossibility of simply achieving change through tweaks to training and internal policies. (Also the fact that four officers responded to a simple issue of a counterfeit bill being discovered suggests that the Department is not using its manpower efficiently and could make economies, rather than asking for more money and more officers).

Nicollet Mall is actually a pretty good example of some of the nuances of this public safety debate. The issues on Nicollet rarely rise to the level of serious violence that requires an armed police response. What's been going on is most clearly a result of the coronavirus pandemic and the lack of people downtown. But you could easily see a reformed Minneapolis public safety approach which uses a specialized group of outreach workers to help reach the people demonstrating anti-social behavior downtown, while a smaller number of armed police officers is freed to actually root out the people who are committing serious crimes.

Anyway, nobody is going to abolish the MPD, but I do think there are a bunch of CM's, possibly a majority, possibly not, who would like to reduce the size of the MPD but probably not reduce the size of law enforcement overall. Just break out the different types of emergency responses and create more specialized groups to handle them, while refocusing the MPD to responding to and investigating more serious crimes.
Agree, but a few random reactions:

At least five officers responded, because there was a Park Police squad there too. But I suspect that the latter three, including Chauvin, were responding a call for assistance after Lane (I think it was) had trouble getting Floyd out of the car he was sitting in. So they were reacting more to [Cartmanvoice]respect my authorita[/Cartmanvoice] more than the counterfeit bill.

Also, Nicollet Mall is even more indicative of the challenges, as it already has unarmed patrol staff meant as eyes on the street in the DID ambassadors.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby amiller92 » November 18th, 2020, 11:42 am

Hmmmm - the increase in violence downtown has been mounting for several years - warehouse district/Hennepin Avenue late at night/early mornings, aggressive panhandling and public intoxication on Nicollet...all increasing before COVID and before everything shut down and left downtown. Some of these may not have been considered "crimes" or "violent", but they did contribute to increasing perceptions of lack of public safety and the city really didn't do much at the time to address it except add extra police/sheriff county deputies to patrol the streets who whenever I saw them, were glued to one spot, basically chatting with one another and not doing anything.
You cannot separate perceptions of crime from the politics of the police union. Their contract was up, they and their allies were pushing the perception of crime. Every time the TV news does trend piece based on one graphic example, ask yourself why.

uptownbro
Metrodome
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Joined: February 10th, 2020, 11:00 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby uptownbro » November 18th, 2020, 11:59 am

Thats only part of the issue at best. If you look at polling data year over year a majority of Americans always feel crime is up from the pervious year.

nordeast homer
US Bank Plaza
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby nordeast homer » November 18th, 2020, 2:18 pm

I believe that the numbers do not truly reflect the amount of crime that is going on out there. Even within my neighborhood there are many instances where people who are victims of crime are not calling the police because they know that they will not get a response or they feel like it's a waste of time because the response they get will be more hassle than it's worth. This especially has been the response to the stealing of catalytic converters and car and/or garage break-ins.
I think we're all victims of our police department and the city council feeding negatively off each other. The city council is doing its best to destroy the police and the police are overwhelmed, under staffed, and afraid to do their jobs for fear of being the next headline.
I'm not sure how many of you have worked in a toxic environment, but it kills any motivation to do anything; you only goal is to get through till the next day. Over time I think it will get better, but for now I think we're all paying the price.

Silophant
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby Silophant » November 18th, 2020, 2:31 pm

Yes, yes, what is the world coming to when the poor downtrodden police can't even kill people anymore without those mean ol' city councilors getting all mad at them.

uptownbro
Metrodome
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Joined: February 10th, 2020, 11:00 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby uptownbro » November 18th, 2020, 3:13 pm

As someone who lives in this city, supports major changes to policing and violence prevention and has family members on the MSPD you need to grow up. Its very clear the mspd has major culture issues mostly due to the union but some due to the city council

Mdcastle
Foshay Tower
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Location: Bloomington, MN

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby Mdcastle » November 18th, 2020, 4:00 pm

Minneapolis police that can't or won't do their jobs isn't a new thing. About 10 years ago I had my car broken into by Lake Nokomis and flagged down some police officers chilling back in their car in an adjacent parking lot. Rather than treat it as a crime to investigate and prosecute the evil scumbags that did it to the fullest extent of the law, they told me to go online to 311 so I could file a report with my insurance. Some of my friends have similar experiences with the police treating auto burglaries as a parking fee for visiting the city.

Crime is absolutely out of control in the suburbs too, but at least the police have the wherewithal to try to do something about it. The neighbors had their car broken into during the crime wave of auto burglaries that terrorized the suburbs last spring. The police not only came but they rang my doorbell and asked to review my security camera footage.

SurlyLHT
Foshay Tower
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Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby SurlyLHT » November 19th, 2020, 11:07 am


Austinite
Metrodome
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Joined: August 10th, 2020, 9:50 am

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby Austinite » November 19th, 2020, 12:02 pm

The point is this - regardless of perception or actual increase/decrease in criminal activity - it's just not acceptable at any level. No one should feel unsafe or fear of injury or being killed. As a society we need to take a serious look into the motivations for criminal activity and what can be done to prevent crimes being committed.

Yes there will always be some crime, and some "sketchy" areas of the city. However, in the past those areas were largely on the outskirts of downtown. Now it's moved into the core of the city, where most people live/work/visit, at all hours. Not the type of situation/environment you want in areas that you want to promote/tout as the "Main Street" of Minnesota, etc.

NickP
Rice Park
Posts: 428
Joined: June 4th, 2012, 5:00 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby NickP » November 19th, 2020, 7:01 pm

The point is this - regardless of perception or actual increase/decrease in criminal activity - it's just not acceptable at any level. No one should feel unsafe or fear of injury or being killed. As a society we need to take a serious look into the motivations for criminal activity and what can be done to prevent crimes being committed.
I'm having some feelings about this idea. I agree that no one should feel unsafe, but I feel like the above statement doesn't inherently include people who are legitimately afraid of the individuals meant to protect. For example, regarding Nicollet Mall, just because I feel safe with police officers around, doesn't mean that everyone does.

amiller92
Wells Fargo Center
Posts: 1836
Joined: October 31st, 2014, 12:50 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby amiller92 » November 20th, 2020, 11:23 am

I believe that the numbers do not truly reflect the amount of crime that is going on out there. Even within my neighborhood there are many instances where people who are victims of crime are not calling the police because they know that they will not get a response or they feel like it's a waste of time because the response they get will be more hassle than it's worth. This especially has been the response to the stealing of catalytic converters and car and/or garage break-ins.
I think we're all victims of our police department and the city council feeding negatively off each other. The city council is doing its best to destroy the police and the police are overwhelmed, under staffed, and afraid to do their jobs for fear of being the next headline.
I'm not sure how many of you have worked in a toxic environment, but it kills any motivation to do anything; you only goal is to get through till the next day. Over time I think it will get better, but for now I think we're all paying the price.
They aren't "overwhelmed, under staffed and afraid to do their jobs." They are on strike. Come on.

uptownbro
Metrodome
Posts: 71
Joined: February 10th, 2020, 11:00 pm

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby uptownbro » November 20th, 2020, 11:40 am

There are a large number of cops on leave right now which is an issue. Which is why the city had to call in extra help from the burbs and park police. I think that's a sign of being overwhelmed given the number of active officers .
I do agree that the reconstruction of Hennepin ave has moved alot of people around downtown added on the covid and economic crisis

Austinite
Metrodome
Posts: 68
Joined: August 10th, 2020, 9:50 am

Re: Nicollet Mall

Postby Austinite » November 20th, 2020, 12:22 pm

I believe that the numbers do not truly reflect the amount of crime that is going on out there. Even within my neighborhood there are many instances where people who are victims of crime are not calling the police because they know that they will not get a response or they feel like it's a waste of time because the response they get will be more hassle than it's worth. This especially has been the response to the stealing of catalytic converters and car and/or garage break-ins.
I think we're all victims of our police department and the city council feeding negatively off each other. The city council is doing its best to destroy the police and the police are overwhelmed, under staffed, and afraid to do their jobs for fear of being the next headline.
I'm not sure how many of you have worked in a toxic environment, but it kills any motivation to do anything; you only goal is to get through till the next day. Over time I think it will get better, but for now I think we're all paying the price.
They aren't "overwhelmed, under staffed and afraid to do their jobs." They are on strike. Come on.
It's been reported quite a few police officers have left the force or there is a lack of applications for new officers. Can you blame them? Again - not saying there aren't bad cops out there or that reform isn't needed with the police department, but there are good cops out there too.


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