The Commons - Downtown East Park

Downtown - North Loop - Mill District - Elliot Park - Loring Park
Archiapolis
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby Archiapolis » May 7th, 2015, 8:20 am

The apartments on the commons have underground parking so they will need to get those levels in soon to get the apartment section up and put together with the other 2 across 4th around the same time.
This city is going to get:
An apartment building

A half-block green space (gotta have some green for the apartment tenants to look at!)

A slightly reduced Portland Avenue with curbs, etc and if we are really good boys and girls and don't complain too much - a pat on the head (unprotected bike path)

A one block "park" which will be a Vikings oriented space

An unchanged light rail stop (no middle platform)

A $6M "bridge to nowhere" (nowhere = Vikingsland)

A bill for park maintenance

Mark it down.

grant1simons2
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby grant1simons2 » May 7th, 2015, 8:27 am

Well that bridge is already looking like it may not happen, not for sure yet. The vikings are also looking at another place for tailgating currently, so hopefully that happens. You're right on the LRT so far, but that could change. I know people who are starting to push harder for the Portland Ave closure. And we have an international firm working on a park here. Damn we can be a pessimistic bunch.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby HiawathaGuy » May 7th, 2015, 8:27 am

This city is going to get:
An apartment building

A half-block green space (gotta have some green for the apartment tenants to look at!)

A slightly reduced Portland Avenue with curbs, etc and if we are really good boys and girls and don't complain too much - a pat on the head (unprotected bike path)

A one block "park" which will be a Vikings oriented space

An unchanged light rail stop (no middle platform)

A $6M "bridge to nowhere" (nowhere = Vikingsland)

A bill for park maintenance

Mark it down.
It's always fun to read posts from "Glass Half Empty" contributors.
:roll:

Archiapolis
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby Archiapolis » May 7th, 2015, 8:46 am

Well that bridge is already looking like it may not happen, not for sure yet. The vikings are also looking at another place for tailgating currently, so hopefully that happens. You're right on the LRT so far, but that could change. I know people who are starting to push harder for the Portland Ave closure. And we have an international firm working on a park here. Damn we can be a pessimistic bunch.
I apologize for the negativity.

I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again and I actually hope to be wrong on this specifically.

Best of luck to the design teams involved but they are fighting a losing battle. Cheers to them for fighting a good fight.

However, there is just too much power/money involved to expect an outcome that is favorable to great urbanism.

What is sad (ironic?) is that I love nothing more than to present idealistic visions for what a place *could* be but "The Commons" has been the definition of a "bait and switch" that was aided and abetted by renderings designed to lie.

Cheers to Ryan and the Vikings for taking advantage of economic instability in the late 10's to push through with their proposals and creating an opportunity for themselves. Developers win.

Hopefully the breadcrumbs are fresh.

Archiapolis
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby Archiapolis » May 7th, 2015, 8:48 am

This city is going to get:
An apartment building

A half-block green space (gotta have some green for the apartment tenants to look at!)

A slightly reduced Portland Avenue with curbs, etc and if we are really good boys and girls and don't complain too much - a pat on the head (unprotected bike path)

A one block "park" which will be a Vikings oriented space

An unchanged light rail stop (no middle platform)

A $6M "bridge to nowhere" (nowhere = Vikingsland)

A bill for park maintenance

Mark it down.
It's always fun to read posts from "Glass Half Empty" contributors.
:roll:
You forgot to put quotes around "contributors."

Again, apologies for the negativity. I'm beyond pissed about this whole process and I'm obviously dejected. I should probably avoid news about this area and this thread.

grant1simons2
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby grant1simons2 » May 7th, 2015, 8:49 am

No, don't worry, you're just fueling me to prove you wrong :) I'm going to start making some calls now.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby HiawathaGuy » May 7th, 2015, 8:54 am

Again, apologies for the negativity. I'm beyond pissed about this whole process and I'm obviously dejected. I should probably avoid news about this area and this thread.
I understand not being happy about things not being done to what we all agree would be perfect.
But life isn't perfect, and this deal isn't perfect.
But it certainly beats what we've had in this location for the past 30 years!

Didier
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby Didier » May 7th, 2015, 8:55 am

The more this thing develops, the more I wish they weren't building the apartment on the west end of the Commons.

mattaudio
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby mattaudio » May 7th, 2015, 9:33 am

^yep. It would have been much better to build apartments over the eastern third (loading dock) of the county jail block. But that wouldn't have been in keeping with the low expectations and low performance of this space, nor would it have directly benefited the Vikings organization.

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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby twincitizen » May 7th, 2015, 9:49 am

I disagree. I've always viewed that building as a feature, not a bug. It screens the park from the jail and from some road noise on that side, along with providing a commercial space that, in theory, will serve as park concessions. It adds eyes directly on the park for safety too (and vice versa, the park will be an enormous amenity for the residents). Ryan did pay the city for that 1/3 block, which in theory helps fund the park.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby FISHMANPET » May 7th, 2015, 9:50 am

It's always fun to read posts from "Glass Half Empty" contributors.
:roll:
Not sure why we're required to treat everything like it's sunshine and puppies all the time.

MNdible
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby MNdible » May 7th, 2015, 9:52 am

Most of the Minneapolis Park system as we know it was underpinned by speculative real estate development. And yet, 100 years later, we're still enjoying it. What a bunch of rubes we are. Don't we know that it helped rich people make money?

mattaudio
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby mattaudio » May 7th, 2015, 10:02 am

^Way to defend a critique that nobody has actually made. Sound rhetoric.

Archiapolis
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby Archiapolis » May 7th, 2015, 10:30 am

Most of the Minneapolis Park system as we know it was underpinned by speculative real estate development. And yet, 100 years later, we're still enjoying it. What a bunch of rubes we are. Don't we know that it helped rich people make money?
I'm obviously failing to avoid this thread...

Can you substantiate this post? Links? Books? I'm not saying the post is false but it it seems very broad ("Most of the...underpinned by..."). I have no doubt that you could find examples of speculative development being "underpinned" by a park but to say "most" and apply that assertion to development patterns over 100 years ago sounds dubious.

I'm sure there is a shot at my frustrations in this post but I'm having trouble understanding what it is. Is the "shot" that I'm a rube for being angry at developers for making money off of a park and/or I'm naive for not understanding capitalism? You are suggesting that rich people in Minneapolis created "most" of the park system to bolster their development plans 100+ years ago. On the surface, this claim seems ridiculous but I'll read up if there is any evidence for the claim. I don't have a landscape architecture degree or an urban planning degree so perhaps you can substantiate the claim and/or it is a well known fact in such circles. Again, I'm having trouble reading the point of this post...

I'm open to criticism/ridicule but either you haven't read my earlier posts (no blame there) or I'm being inarticulate. I'll try to put in in a crucible:

I'm angry because:
1. The images/renderings presented that were used to win approval for the whole development are NOT representative of the actual "park" that is emerging.

2. "Bait and switch" imagery/tactics are disgusting and should be decried by anyone who cares about best possible urbanism.

I'm not now, nor have ever been against people making money. What I AM against is false imagery that wins projects and then getting a much worse project than advertised. *IF* I'm reading your post correctly it sounds like you are willing to just shrug your shoulders and accept these kinds of tactics because capitalism. Apologies if I'm missing the point but the process that you seem willing to accept is not acceptable to me - not that it matters to anyone because I'm a (relatively) powerless/penniless individual.

City-building/great urbanism seems impossible when capitulation to the whims of developers/capitalism is the default but maybe we have different definitions of great urbanism.

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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby HiawathaGuy » May 7th, 2015, 10:33 am

It's always fun to read posts from "Glass Half Empty" contributors.
:roll:
Not sure why we're required to treat everything like it's sunshine and puppies all the time.
This isn't a pissing match. I never stated that everything needed to be sunshine and puppies all the time. In fact, I stated that this proposal may not be everyone's ideal (including mine),

But adding any green space to downtown is certainly better than asphalt parking lots. It's more that it seems a lot of people on this forum tend to crap all over most anything happening. It's just sort of sad. That's just my opinion though. There's always room for improvement on most anything that happens - roads, transit, buildings, etc. But too often we don't seem to celebrate the fact that we have an amazing metro with much to be celebrated.

I'm not a big Vikings fan, nor will I ever see a game in their new stadium, but I'll be damned if I'll bitch about Ziggy building his Taj Mahal downtown, or that we're getting new green space on adjacent blocks.

Frankly there are many, many, many other cities out there that would love to have the problems Minneapolis and this metro have.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby FISHMANPET » May 7th, 2015, 10:40 am

I kind of agree with what you're saying (even though it has a slight tinge of someone pissing on your leg and telling you it's raining). But the initial post sounded like the silly knee jerk reaction of "UrbanMSP is too negative" coming from the "negative nancy it should be taller" SSC crowd.

Anyway, carry on all.

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FISHMANPET
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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby FISHMANPET » May 7th, 2015, 10:46 am

Also, I understand and agree with the idea of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, but I'm totally OK with the good be the enemy of the crap. I know that's a hard line to define, but just because Detroit would be happy to have our problems doesn't mean we can just sit back with a mission accomplished banner hanging in our basements.

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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby Didier » May 7th, 2015, 10:47 am

I disagree. I've always viewed that building as a feature, not a bug. It screens the park from the jail and from some road noise on that side, along with providing a commercial space that, in theory, will serve as park concessions. It adds eyes directly on the park for safety too (and vice versa, the park will be an enormous amenity for the residents). Ryan did pay the city for that 1/3 block, which in theory helps fund the park.
I have no beef (or pork) with blocking the view of the jail, but what I don't like is cutting off the sightline from the west side of the Commons. It's already a pretty dramatic view, and I think it'd make Downtown East feel more connected to the CBD if you could see the stadium while walking toward it on 4th and 5th streets. With the apartment you won't see the Commons or the stadium until you get to the armory.

I also think there are more effective ways to develop the west end of the Commons than a four-story apartment. For example, a much-needed amphitheater.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chica ... 00!6m1!1e1

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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby EOst » May 7th, 2015, 10:52 am

Can you substantiate this post? Links? Books? I'm not saying the post is false but it it seems very broad ("Most of the...underpinned by..."). I have no doubt that you could find examples of speculative development being "underpinned" by a park but to say "most" and apply that assertion to development patterns over 100 years ago sounds dubious.
Just for one example, the whole Stevens Square area is the product of a 5-10 year speculative boom fueled by the park, which was created by an assessment on the speculating landowners.

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Re: The Commons - Downtown East Park

Postby MNdible » May 7th, 2015, 10:52 am

Re: Speculative real estate: There's not a lot of scholarly research on this, because it's a regional thing that nobody cares that much about. If you read through the histories of the Park system, which are mostly hagiographies about the great men who had the foresight to start the system, you'll see countless instances of landowners who donated chunks of their holdings to the park board to build out parks and parkways. The land that was donated was often unbuildable anyway, and the future park made their remaining adjacent landholdings much more valuable.

My point was just that this is a pretty striking parallel to what's happening now, and also that you don't have to have pure motives to end up with something nice that the public will enjoy and will be a long term benefit to the city.

The absolute certainty that we're going to get f'ed on this park is kind of amazing.

I've had some skepticism on this deal myself, but I'd say that most of the recent developments have been positive. To wit:

1. The Vikings deal with the County Morgue should take a lot of pressure off of the Commons.
2. The likelihood that MLS will end up on the other end of town means that there are now something like 40 fewer days that the park has a conflict.
3. The early plans that we've seen indicate that the park space will be flexible and programmable and will have elements (cafe, restrooms, etc.) that should help activate it.
4. The conservancy that's being established to run it is exactly the kind of thing that most smart people were recommending.
5. The fact that it looks like Portland Avenue won't be closed right now is not a deal killer and will not ruin the park. It does not prevent it from being closed in the future.

If what's really chapping people's asses is that the media is choosing to use old images... that's a pretty ridiculous thing to get angry about.


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