Maverick - 100 Hennepin Avenue S

[Gman12]

I've been told by multiple developers that there isn't enough demand for anything over 300 units. That it would be an "unsafe" investment. I didn't say I want tall. I guess I should've cleared that up some more. I want more units. And yes that may result in a height change as well, but it'd be worth it for the density. I read an article today that they want to put town homes lining N 1st St.. Why? Why use that space for town homes when you can have retail and bring life back to the corner? Once again we're told it's all in the demand. Understandable in this case for retail because that's a slow moving train downtown. But they're literally growing downtown, and along with that the people in the market for retail stores.

Did they say what that was based on? I'm guessing over 300 units would push the lease out period of time over their desired threshold...wheather that be 12 months, 18 months...etc. They don't want to delay the return on their investment.

[grant1simons2]

253 units of Nic on Fifth is over 75% leased already. Its been 8 months since they opened their doors

[Archiapolis]

I've been told by multiple developers that there isn't enough demand for anything over 300 units. That it would be an "unsafe" investment. I didn't say I want tall. I guess I should've cleared that up some more. I want more units. And yes that may result in a height change as well, but it'd be worth it for the density. I read an article today that they want to put town homes lining N 1st St.. Why? Why use that space for town homes when you can have retail and bring life back to the corner? Once again we're told it's all in the demand. Understandable in this case for retail because that's a slow moving train downtown. But they're literally growing downtown, and along with that the people in the market for retail stores.

Well, if you want more units, how else would you do it without going taller? The only other way to do it would be to do smaller units within the same gross square footage but there is no way that you are going to double the units and stay within the same gross sf of a 6 story on this site.

There are economic calculations once you go above the “5 over 1” (type IIIA or IIIB).

It doesn’t really make sense to do 8 stories because you don’t get the economies of scale that you’d want with a different construction type (steel framing, etc) just to do two more stories so the calculus becomes how can you do (for example) post-tension concrete to increase the height using a different construction type? There are other added costs for height (pressurizing the elevator shafts, etc.). Alatus seems to have identified a height that they feel comfortable with for PT construction (Latitude 45). As always, developers aren’t risk-takers and if someone else is doing it, there is a “comparable.” So, the developers at 100 Hennepin have to weigh the risk/reward and ROI for a 6 story thing versus a 13 story thing because they are VERY different.

I *do* think Latitude 45 is an interesting analog because Alatus owns/controls the parking ramp next door. At 100 Hennepin, it *seems* like there would be a way to do two levels of underground parking AND offer parking in the ramp next door which is the exact same condition as Lat 45.

[twincitizen]

I could see putting enough retail space for a coffee shop at the corner of Hennepin & 1st, but probably nothing beyond that. I sometimes think a few of you guys actually envision retail lining Hennepin all the way to the river bank. That's extremely unrealistic. There will be retail space added at the north end of Nicollet Mall (and Hennepin) in United's Gateway project, and additional space in the Eclipse project if/when that moves forward. That's a lot of new space! Washington Avenue is right there! Let's concentrate & strengthen the retail areas that already exist today.

Love the idea of townhomes wrapping the 1st Ave side of the ramp - I hope that happens...it is a very skinny parcel! There is plenty of potential retail space in the existing historic buildings in that area too. Just look around: https://www.google.com/maps/@44.983999, ... QEj9ow!2e0 Metro Transit will probably have to relocate that bus layover point though for those 1st Ave facing units to be livable.

[grant1simons2]

I made a dumb mistake then. I read St instead of Ave. Still. This would've been a cool mini retail block

[John]

I agree that it would be nice to have a bigger project here but if they own/control the land and there are no other proposals on the table, I don't really see the city refusing this project in favor of an abstract "better" project that doesn't currently exist but maybe Jacob Frey and the urbanists will fight for something else...

Well, Mr Frey was able to raise the bar for the Superior site in Northeast, and this site is way more prominent. The question for me is why our city/community invests all this money into improving the riverfront and renovating Nicollet Mall, then allows these subpar proposals to get built as cheaply as possible so developers can just flip them as fast as they can?

The point of all these public improvements should be to attract quality proposals that are built to endure, enhance pedestrian activity , beautify the built environment, and increase the tax base for the city long term. It's very disconcerting to watch this NOT happening.

[twincitizen]

...enhance pedestrian activity, beautify the built environment, and increase the tax base for the city long term. It's very disconcerting to watch this NOT happening.

It's kind of non-factual to state that this proposal will not accomplish any of these things. You can judge the architecture once we actually see the proposal, but it is a fact that it will add approximately 200 residents who enliven the area. It is a fact that it will increase the tax base. It is a fact that it will screen the parking ramp from Hennepin Ave (though I'm a lil worried about those elevator/stair towers sticking out above like antennae).

Let's not forget that there are roughly 1300 units on the table right now between the Nicollet Hotel Block, Opus Ritz Block, and Eclipse. Another 1,000 units are being floated on the other end of the bridge. That is a metric assload and it is quite possible that not all get built in the next 7-10 years.

[acs]

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/301082081.html

More info. Hope to rush through approvals and start construction by end of year. Retail at the corners of Hennepin, and tuck under garages for the townhomes. Maybe Ryan got a little confused and sent us a plan for Maple Grove instead of downtown Minneapolis two blocks from the river.

[twincitizen]

Well on one hand, 2-level townhomes over garages on the 1st Ave side will make the units taller, thereby screening more of the ramp from sidewalk-level views. On the other hand, a sizable percentage of the 1st Ave sidewalk would be driveways... I have to wonder how that meshes with city codes. That would be an assload of curb cuts, even if they were paired.

I think we all have to keep in mind how limited the options are for that 1st Ave side. That parcel is super narrow. Theoretically it could also be a quasi-public park for nearby residents if the rowhome thing doesn't pan out. The biggest question is why can't they just park in the damn ramp and forego the garages / curb cuts entirely. How many units would line 1st Ave - maybe 10, tops? FFS, just secure them 20 spaces on the first floor of the ramp!!

[go4guy]

Agreed, it may not be ideal to have those curb cuts, but if done right it will still function well. A few neighborhoods in DC come to mind where they have tuckunder garages. Hopefully the units are wide enough so the main living area can be near ground level with plenty of windows.

[EOst]

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/301082081.html

More info. Hope to rush through approvals and start construction by end of year. Retail at the corners of Hennepin, and tuck under garages for the townhomes. Maybe Ryan got a little confused and sent us a plan for Maple Grove instead of downtown Minneapolis two blocks from the river.

Look, this isn't the best proposal, but the negativity here is getting a little operatic. Yes, this is two blocks from the river; it also faces a six lane road (eight lanes across the street!), it's a pretty long walk from the office core, and though there are some decent restaurants/shops a couple blocks north, the Gateway district adjacent is a ghost town. Yes, there is a ton of potential for this area, but right now it's a marginal area at best. Frankly, the fact that they're planning two large retail spaces is pretty impressive in its own right for how much empty commercial space there is around here and how pedestrian-hostile that part of Hennepin is.

[grant1simons2]

I hope we get a ton of, "CAUTION CAR APPROACHING," announcements with these too!

But I'm glad there's going to be retail along Hennepin! That makes me feel easier about the project. Now if Eclipse can surface up with some retail along it too, I'd be loving it.

[twincitizen]

Even with the tuckunder garages, it's not like the 1st Ave frontage here could possibly be worse than the backside of 222.

With ~280 feet of street frontage available along 1st Ave, you've got maaaybe 10-12 units? 5 or 6 curb cuts (assuming paired garages)?

I don't agree with it (as stated above - just secure spaces on the first level of the ramp, directly behind the units...DUH), but it's not the end of the world either.

[xandrex]

Seems like it would be so much easier to forego those tuck-under garage, secure some parking in the ramp for them, and provide direct ramp-to-unit back entrances (or to a secured common hallway that leads to individual units.

[MNdible]

That lot looks super-narrow, but in fact it appears to be about 55' wide per Hennepin County, so I'd predict that there will be an alley separating the ramp from the townhouses, and the tuck under garages would be accessed off of that. In a perfect world, that would still leave enough space for small live-work spaces that could front the street.

[twincitizen]

Interesting - in 1964 the Hennepin Ave half of the block had been cleared (prob. as part of Gateway clearance?) but the 1st Ave half of the block was still standing. The parking ramp arrived in 1982, just like me.

http://geo.lib.umn.edu/Hennepin_County/ ... EE-101.jpg

[HiawathaGuy]

Interesting - in 1964 the Hennepin Ave half of the block had been cleared (prob. as part of Gateway clearance?) but the 1st Ave half of the block was still standing. The parking ramp arrived in 1982, just like me.

http://geo.lib.umn.edu/Hennepin_County/ ... EE-101.jpg

My god that aerial shot is amazing... SO crazy to think that's only 50 years ago!
The rail lines along the river & the sea of endless parking lots. Wow.

[Archiapolis]

That lot looks super-narrow, but in fact it appears to be about 55' wide per Hennepin County, so I'd predict that there will be an alley separating the ramp from the townhouses, and the tuck under garages would be accessed off of that. In a perfect world, that would still leave enough space for small live-work spaces that could front the street.

If that lot is really only 55' wide then that's a problem. 1' wall + 18' stall + 22' drive aisle + 18' stall + 1' wall = 60 feet minimum width for a double-loaded parking plate.

That is 5' wider than the estimate AND doesn't leave room for an alley/access drive behind for a "tuck under" scenario.

It looks like there are 136 stalls on the surface lot right now.

159 stalls in two plates of that length that are 60' wide + the ramps, turnings, columns, stairs, elevators, mechanicals, trash room...seems difficult. If the parking plate is less than 60' wide - no way.

[go4guy]

^ I think they meant that it is 55 feet deep. From the 1st Ave curb to the parking garage. Plenty of room for a tuck under garage. The garages would be next to each other, each facing 1st Ave. Unless I am missing something.

[Archiapolis]

^ I think they meant that it is 55 feet deep. From the 1st Ave curb to the parking garage. Plenty of room for a tuck under garage. The garages would be next to each other, each facing 1st Ave. Unless I am missing something.

We are both a little confused. I thought MNDible was talking about the whole site at 100 Hennepin only being 55' wide. After reading it again, it looks like he is saying that it there is a "lot" that is 55' wide from 1st St. (you said 1st Ave) to the parking ramp.

It looks like MNDible is saying that he'd like to see the townhouse unit pushed up to the lot line fronting 1st.

These units are going to have to be very wide to work…

Assuming the following:

12’ x 20’ garage (which would be a tiny 1 stall garage)
240 sf

55' - 22’ drive aisle - 18' parking stall with circulation (most SFH garages are 20’ deep minimum) = 13’ max depth for any unit space. 13’ must include wall thicknesses, etc. As pointed out, it is weird for an urban setting like this but I’ve seen some interesting approaches.

Then again, maybe I’m STILL confused.