Re: CPM North Loop Office Building - 419 Washington Ave N / 420 N 3rd St
Posted: January 12th, 2017, 12:24 am
I was more so directing this at beige
Architecture, Development, and Infrastructure of the Twin Cities
https://urbanmsp.com/
THIS x 1000.Wow, every time I open one of these files I'm blown away by how much effort and detail goes into each and every proposal. I can see developers and designers getting incredibly frustrated by NIMBYs after putting in all that work, only to get a response like "it'll block my view".
I'm not sure how software development (or any other kind of development for that matter) works but do those disciplines get paid IN FULL for every second of work that they put into a project (whether it dies or not)? Often, the fee structure for an architecture firm is very much "at risk" and predicated on two things:Everybody who does project based work experiences this. I experience this. Just part of the territory. No one felt sorry for the guy who designed Apple Maps, they just hated the product. Hell, even good products get scrapped or don't sell or fail in some other way.Man it's a good thing development companies aren't the ones creating the files!
You know designers aren't going into design for the money, right? Like screw you if you think that architects are still happy if a project dies. Those projects are like flowers. We care and care for them and want them to be something beautiful. It sucks when it dies.
I think the point is that the burden to produce something that people like is on the developer and designer and there's no point in feeling bad for them if the project doesn't work for the space.
And even if it were only about the money, enough repeat blockage means the companies won't be around to channel those paychecks to the designers. Granted, that's an extreme case -- not literally every project gets shut down by NIMBYs -- but we certainly must consider the damping effect it has on the overall market.You know designers aren't going into design for the money, right?
That's interesting; I didn't know this. If worked for an architecture firm, I would still blame the developer in the event of not getting paid for work (or, as MNdible notes above, my highers-up at the firm), for establishing that kind of exploitative work relationship – not necessarily the NIMBYs (who are condemnable nonetheless, but one needn't invoke the oh-so-tragic plight of the architects to determine that). Either way, emotional investment in these types of projects seems amateurish, and/or only a thing if one truly fetishizes the aesthetics of inequality-solidifying contemporary development patterns.Often, the fee structure for an architecture firm is very much "at risk" and predicated on two things:
1. Entitlement (municipal approval)
2. Building Permit
To Grant's point, if you want to nonchalantly put aside the effort put forth by architects then that's fine but please understand that there are financial impacts to the firm.
Agreed. I guess my point is that as a citizen and as someone who lives and works in the city of Minneapolis, I'm interested in what's best for the city and not how the designers or developers feel, especially when they are trying to bend the rules. That said, I'm also not all that concerned with many of the concerns of NIMBYs either, especially when it's stuff like free public parking or blocked views.I sort of blame architects racing to the bottom on fee for willing to be repeatedly bent over by developers. It's a terrible business model that exists in that part of the industry.
On the other hand, when you propose something that requires approvals above and beyond what's allowed in the base zoning, you're knowingly taking on risk and so shouldn't be surprised that there's occasionally opposition.
As noted previously, there are very very few instances where projects have been killed by neighborhood opposition, even when they've required significant upzoning.
If you know a way out of this model, then architects would be very glad to hear about the model that is profitable, keeps work flowing in and doesn't drive clients (developers) away.I sort of blame architects racing to the bottom on fee for willing to be repeatedly bent over by developers. It's a terrible business model that exists in that part of the industry.
To be clear, the developers are the ones driving the "something that requires approvals", not architects. Developer driven work is driven (almost) completely by pro forma and not an architect's whim to make a building taller/more massive. The "risk" is in the fact that in backloaded fee scenarios as I described above - the fees in the entitlement phase are very low.On the other hand, when you propose something that requires approvals above and beyond what's allowed in the base zoning, you're knowingly taking on risk and so shouldn't be surprised that there's occasionally opposition.
It is a difficult situation. I've already described the "backloaded" way that most fee scenarios are structured for developer driven work. For the service provider (architecture firm), it is a catch 22. There are only so many developers in town and when they don't compensate the firm as they should, it is hard for the firm to go after the developer too aggressively for payment (or sue them) since they will just go to the next firm who, as was pointed out above, will accept worse terms.That's interesting; I didn't know this. If worked for an architecture firm, I would still blame the developer in the event of not getting paid for work (or, as MNdible notes above, my highers-up at the firm), for establishing that kind of exploitative work relationship – not necessarily the NIMBYs (who are condemnable nonetheless, but one needn't invoke the oh-so-tragic plight of the architects to determine that). Either way, emotional investment in these types of projects seems amateurish, and/or only a thing if one truly fetishizes the aesthetics of inequality-solidifying contemporary development patterns.Often, the fee structure for an architecture firm is very much "at risk" and predicated on two things:
1. Entitlement (municipal approval)
2. Building Permit
To Grant's point, if you want to nonchalantly put aside the effort put forth by architects then that's fine but please understand that there are financial impacts to the firm.
I'm a citizen. I live and work in Minneapolis. I'm interested in what is best for the city but "best for the city" is of course, subjective.Agreed. I guess my point is that as a citizen and as someone who lives and works in the city of Minneapolis, I'm interested in what's best for the city and not how the designers or developers feel, especially when they are trying to bend the rules. That said, I'm also not all that concerned with many of the concerns of NIMBYs either, especially when it's stuff like free public parking or blocked views.I sort of blame architects racing to the bottom on fee for willing to be repeatedly bent over by developers. It's a terrible business model that exists in that part of the industry.
On the other hand, when you propose something that requires approvals above and beyond what's allowed in the base zoning, you're knowingly taking on risk and so shouldn't be surprised that there's occasionally opposition.
As noted previously, there are very very few instances where projects have been killed by neighborhood opposition, even when they've required significant upzoning.
Well, the way out would be for architects to agree that it's bad practice to give away a bunch of work for free on the front end with the hope that they'll get paid in the end. Other professions don't do this. Lawyers charge retainers before they start working.If you know a way out of this model, then architects would be very glad to hear about the model that is profitable, keeps work flowing in and doesn't drive clients (developers) away.
The rules we're talking about here deserve a lot of bending.Agreed. I guess my point is that as a citizen and as someone who lives and works in the city of Minneapolis, I'm interested in what's best for the city and not how the designers or developers feel, especially when they are trying to bend the rules.
While we're talking about architects' feelings... I highly doubt the architects at D+B firms would appreciate that depiction. Vertical integration of professional services isn't a bad thing. If I were a developer (or, say, a public entity looking for construction services, something I currently facilitate), I appreciate the option to work with a single firm that guarantees all phases of the work are integrated. That there's no markups on architectural work contracted out, and less risk involved. Should we hate on architecture firms who integrate building efficiency modeling into their list of services because, hey, there are energy firms out there that do that too?Developers who own architecture firms outpricing the real architecture firms. Basically design+build caused this mess.