17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

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lordmoke
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby lordmoke » October 30th, 2020, 9:46 am

21st Century Bank is fully relocated to Main Street and appears to be open already.

alexschief
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby alexschief » December 7th, 2020, 12:17 pm

According to the City's planning applications data portal, this was submitted last week. The official submission has five fewer units than was proposed to the CoW for who-knows-what reason.

I assume this will hit the CPC agenda on January 11th or 25th.

seanrichardryan
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby seanrichardryan » December 30th, 2020, 5:21 pm

OPE- this needs HPC review https://lims.minneapolismn.gov/download ... ttachments

WTF is the 'Gateway Potential Historic District' mentioned in here? That should absolutely NOT be a thing. Individually landmark all you want, but the ethos of the shit 1960s urban office park land-use should not be memorialized. Hell, the defining style of the Gateway was actually surface parking.
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Silophant
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby Silophant » December 30th, 2020, 6:08 pm

Good lord, what an embarrassment. Part of the argument for this historicity is the "car-centric design".

alexschief
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby alexschief » December 30th, 2020, 6:43 pm

The building was completed as part of the Gateway Center redevelopment, now commonly known as the Gateway area or Gateway District of downtown Minneapolis. In the 2011 Historic Resources Inventory of Central Core by Mead & Hunt, the consultants did not identify the subject property for further research or potential National Register of Historic Places (NRHP) listing following the 2010 survey of the building for the Hennepin County Regional Rail Authority and Metropolitan Council Southwest Transitway Survey by Hess, Roise and Co. which recommended the building not eligible for NRHP listing. However, the consultants for the Central Core inventory did identify an adjacent Gateway Potential Historic District, encompassing many of the parcels developed for the Gateway Center urban renewal project, but did not include the subject property.
I dunno, seems to me like this should settle the question.

Also might be relevant to note that the Gateway Center redevelopment is widely viewed today as a historic mistake! Maybe not something worth preserving!

uptownbro
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby uptownbro » December 30th, 2020, 7:35 pm

Honestly what a joke. I’m all for preservation of historically important buildings but this is like saving a historic car dealership

EOst
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby EOst » December 31st, 2020, 4:18 pm

Without arguing one way or another re: this building, I really want to push back on the idea that the Gateway District doesn't deserve preservation because the buildings don't suit contemporary tastes. That is exactly the justification people used 60 years ago to demolish the original Gateway District... when those buildings were about 60 years old (in 1959, one of the HRA's attorneys called the Metropolitan Building "a monstrosity in the eyes of most observers," and most people in city government agreed!) If we're going to have historic preservation at all--and I know people here will argue that, but let's set that aside for the moment--it can't just be preserving the things that everyone now thinks are pretty and picturesque, because most buildings will never get a chance to reach the "pretty and picturesque" stage if they aren't preserved at about this age.

Brenns
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby Brenns » December 31st, 2020, 4:22 pm

Good lord, what an embarrassment. Part of the argument for this historicity is the "car-centric design".
I really like the Dolphin Staffing building. It's aged extremely well (from the exterior at least), and this style of facade has seen a major comeback. However, that charm absolutely does not extend down to the car-centric ground level. Given the right intervention (ie, a fully enclosed ground floor with storefronts that totally eliminates said "historicity"), this building could be a great architectural asset to the neighborhood.
All that said, not a hill I'm willing to die on.

alexschief
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby alexschief » December 31st, 2020, 5:09 pm

I like the Dophin Staffing building too, you can go back to page one to see that I wanted whatever was built here to take inspiration from it. But that doesn't mean it's historic, and that doesn't mean it should be preserved.

The urban renewal period was traumatic and damaging for cities. We can look back say that it was a mistake, not because we do or don't like the aesthetics of modernism, but because of real tangible concerns. It erased homes. It erased businesses. It put the car above people and created a part of downtown that lost a great deal of value for the city. Minneapolis is certainly not obligated to remain a museum to that era.

There's this irony that the mistakes of midcentury planners ultimately led to a backlash that ensured that those mistakes couldn't happen again (an increased emphasis on public participation being the main change, formal historic preservation is another). But now sometimes, the tools that emerged to defend against urban renewal are being used to make permanent the damage that the urban renewal era caused. It's perverse.

We need to remember that the biggest problem with Robert Moses and people like him wasn't their process (urban renewal was often extremely popular), it was that their ideas about what ailed the city and what would fix it were wrong.

The Dolphin Staffing building has a fun facade, but it was and is bad urbanism, and we shouldn't feel guilty about saying that.

TroyGBiv
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby TroyGBiv » December 31st, 2020, 5:35 pm

“ The Dolphin Staffing building has a fun facade, but it was and is bad urbanism, and we shouldn't feel guilty about saying that.” I agree... if this was the old Lutheran Brotherhood building yes...

mnmike
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby mnmike » January 1st, 2021, 4:00 am

Back when I was at the U of M...Judith Martin (may she rest in peace), used to say that the Gateway Renewal Project was great for the city's image, and kept us looking progressive. Not that she didn't bemoan the loss of urban fabric, but I recall her arguing that the city may not have done as well or stayed as relevant had it not happened as it did. If we were going to keep any of the buildings from that era aside from the big obvious ones (ING)...I would say it would be this one and/or the city of lakes building.

By the way, we do have protected car dealerships, and I think rightly so! The few buildings left along Harmon Place that make up the historic Harmon Auto district? Just because some folks don't like cars doesn't mean they aren't part of our history, or that they didn't contribute to some interesting architecture that should be protected. I mean honestly...I am sure there is a drive through somewhere even that may be worthy of historic designation? But anyhoo. I don't think arguing that Dolphin Staffing building is historic is ridiculous...to be honest, I kind of already thought it had been designated. I will be kind of sad if and when it goes, but I think I am more sad about the lovely Mpls Athletic Club building that was demolished over on Central only to remain an empty lot so far.

PS, I think there are some people on here that know who Judith Martin was?

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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby amiller92 » January 1st, 2021, 10:45 am

Without arguing one way or another re: this building, I really want to push back on the idea that the Gateway District doesn't deserve preservation because the buildings don't suit contemporary tastes. That is exactly the justification people used 60 years ago to demolish the original Gateway District... when those buildings were about 60 years old (in 1959, one of the HRA's attorneys called the Metropolitan Building "a monstrosity in the eyes of most observers," and most people in city government agreed!) If we're going to have historic preservation at all--and I know people here will argue that, but let's set that aside for the moment--it can't just be preserving the things that everyone now thinks are pretty and picturesque, because most buildings will never get a chance to reach the "pretty and picturesque" stage if they aren't preserved at about this age.
Few buildings surviving is how they become pretty and picturesque (or perhaps more accurately, nostalgia-inducing). Which is the conundrum that makes historical preservation dodgy.

go4guy
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby go4guy » January 1st, 2021, 2:28 pm

To me, the biggest difference between this and the Gateway District being bulldozed is this is one building that is being replaced by a higher density use building. Not just razing it for the sake of razing it.

TroyGBiv
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby TroyGBiv » January 3rd, 2021, 1:29 am

“PS, I think there are some people on here that know who Judith Martin was?“ I knew her well! I really do miss her! I had worked for RT while I was in one of her grad classes and she gave me such a hard time. She ruled with her tongue! Such a sharp wit.

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SurlyLHT
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby SurlyLHT » January 4th, 2021, 9:29 am

Truthfully, I've never cared for the Dolphin building..we have other buildings nearby of greater significance and representative of city history. The biggest one being the Post Office shall it ever get redeveloped. This tower also has so much going for it.

uptownbro
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby uptownbro » January 4th, 2021, 11:48 am

I think there is a good argument for preserving some of the significant modernist buildings in the city I just dont see it for this one. It would be one thing if they wanted to replace riverside plaza or the government center.
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dimabima
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby dimabima » January 4th, 2021, 12:45 pm

I'm glad that Fletcher recognizes the absurdity of the argument for this particular building.

contrast
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby contrast » January 5th, 2021, 11:22 pm

Its interesting that that city seems quite confident that this building:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9779489 ... 384!8i8192
doesn't meet any historic preservation standards and should be sold to the highest bidder for redevelopment, but the Dolphin Staffing building, might be historic and eligible for preservation.

LakeCharles
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby LakeCharles » January 6th, 2021, 8:16 am

Its interesting that that city seems quite confident that this building:
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.9779489 ... 384!8i8192
doesn't meet any historic preservation standards and should be sold to the highest bidder for redevelopment, but the Dolphin Staffing building, might be historic and eligible for preservation.
Yeah I'd take that one over Dolphin Staffing.

alexschief
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Re: 17 North Washington - CA - 27 stories - ~300'(?)

Postby alexschief » January 6th, 2021, 9:17 am

HPC voted to place this building (that has been previously studied and dismissed) under interim protection so that the issue could be further studied. Classic Minneapolis process. But the one vote in opposition was from CM Johnson, the only councilmember on the commission, who otherwise did not comment. My guess is that this will be appealed to the City Council who will lift the interim protection, allow this building to be demolished, and the project to move forward.


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