Target Center Renovation

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SurlyLHT
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby SurlyLHT » May 28th, 2021, 10:31 am

I will happily argue that there is no legitimate public value in a billion dollar publicly subsidized pro sports stadium at the intersection of our $5 billion+ rail system, but that's not why I called it that. Even though taxpayers aren't paying for this part, the fact that it's had to be re-skinned three times in less than a decade is as close to a literal example of a boondoggle as one can get.
Maybe let Bloomington have it. Part of MOA expansion.

Didier
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby Didier » May 28th, 2021, 9:57 pm

There’s no value in having a major entertainment venue served by transit? What?

tmart
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby tmart » May 30th, 2021, 7:29 pm

Can everyone agree to retire the word boondoggle?

It's use and meaning has been contorted and has ended being used negatively about any large scale project that the government pays for that an any individually doesn't see I don't see any value in. Literally anyone could argue that almost project is a boondoggle, US Bank Stadium? yup. SWLRT? see the the whole tunnel controversy to start with. MoA? the city of Bloomington gave them how many tax breaks. the Guthrie? how much did it cost again. The UofM, read the Strib for this week installment in their never ending series of how the U is messed up?

Point being just because you don't see any value in something something doesn't mean there isn't any. Because I can promise any project you support someone else can make a strong case it's a boondoggle.
This is all fair, but I also think sometimes it's worth separating out values questions like, "Do I think this is a good idea? Would I have spent this amount of money on this thing?" versus "Was it designed and executed efficiently? Did it achieve the stated goals?" I'll set aside the loaded word boondoggle but I still think the latter questions are well worth asking.

Regardless of whether or not we support public funding, the Wild arena was much better-executed than the Vikings stadium. It was quite affordable compared to the other projects we've done, it gets a lot of usage outside of hockey (including state events like MSHSL tournaments), and it's still fairly state-of-the-art despite only minimal renovations.

By contrast, the Vikings stadium was poorly executed. It was extremely expensive, with lots of superfluous design elements that drove up costs and have led it to be literally falling apart. It hosts very few events beyond 8 Vikings games per year; it's quite redundant for many uses, given that we had just built a brand-new football stadium across the river. We can set aside the questions of whether or not a public-owned football stadium should exist, and still ask if we couldn't have solved our region's football needs in a more useful, more durable, cheaper way.

I don't know enough about the NBA, the Wolves' lease, and so on, but the fact that they're already whining about the arena five years after we poured a ton of money into renovating it for their benefit suggests to me that it may have been wasteful--not in terms of subjective questions like "should we spend money on sports," but because it seemingly didn't actually succeed at the original goal of placating the team.

Didier
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby Didier » May 30th, 2021, 10:28 pm

My memory might be wrong, but I don’t recall the public having to pay any more than originally planned for the Vikings stadium, and I’m pretty sure everything going on now is insured. But again correct me if I’m wrong.

I also don’t think you can honestly say that we could have done the Vikings stadium in a way that would have been meaningfully cheaper. NFL teams don’t play in 40,000-seat stadiums with bench seats and limited premium seating. The only thing they could have done to really cut costs on US Bank Stadium would have been to take off the roof, which again was a nonstarter and would have made the venue even less valuable to the public.

The real answer to the question of how we could have found significant cost savings would be to have not built TCF Bank Stadium. But if that’s where we’re going here it’s just a pointless exercise at this point.

It’s also important context that the comparable fixed roof NFL stadiums that opened after ours were significantly more expensive, and I’d argue not demonstrably better. The one in Las Vegas was $800K more, and their public funding setup was way worse than ours too.

Obviously US Bank Stadium isn’t perfect. The siding situation is embarrassing, and the permanent temporary security fence takes away. In an ideal world, where politics didn’t exist, it probably would have been better to put it in one of the sites over by Target Field. But overall US Bank Stadium functions as well as could be expected, and even if the design is polarizing at least it’s something. Most NFL stadiums have no real design.

So I guess my point is that overall I agree with your approach to looking at these projects, but I don’t think the Vikings stadium in context was as bad as you say. It’s in line with what it costs to have an NFL team (a different discussion), and is generally considered among the better stadiums in the league.

If you look at it really objectively, the Target Center renovation, while considerably cheaper, was probably the worst use of public funds for a sports project in recent years. In this case we actually had a duplicate facility across the river, the team contributed very little to the costs and ultimately it didn’t solve the fundamental problem with, which is that the lower deck is too small. It’s totally predictable that we’d be in this situation right now.

Oreos&Milk
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby Oreos&Milk » June 30th, 2021, 11:26 am

Dumb question... if Arenas or stadiums only are so temporary why can’t we build them more “disposable” like ikea? ... build them out of metal and glass and keep concrete pouring lower (ie limited to footings) to keep costs down. That way the glass and metal can be recycled without crazy demolition like the metronome. Plus digging a hole for the stands instead of building massive concrete stands seems better as it’s more reusable.

Just a thought I mean does it really need to be this expensive?

Mdcastle
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby Mdcastle » July 1st, 2021, 6:46 am

We're all under the delusion that this time, it's really going to be a long term home and the teams aren't going to start threatening to leave town if we don't build them a new stadium in a decade or two.

mullen
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby mullen » July 1st, 2021, 7:41 am

someone in this thread said the guthrie was a boondoggle? lol. it got bonding money from the state the vast majority of the money to build that facility was privately raised. i guess we can't invest in any nice things in this metro.

HuskyGrad
Union Depot
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby HuskyGrad » July 1st, 2021, 12:24 pm

Dumb question... if Arenas or stadiums only are so temporary why can’t we build them more “disposable” like ikea? ... build them out of metal and glass and keep concrete pouring lower (ie limited to footings) to keep costs down. That way the glass and metal can be recycled without crazy demolition like the metronome. Plus digging a hole for the stands instead of building massive concrete stands seems better as it’s more reusable.

Just a thought I mean does it really need to be this expensive?
Having been through a number of European stadiums I feel like Germany hits the right level of form vs. function.

The Waldstadion (Deutsche Bank Park) in Frankfurt is a great example of this. It's impressive walking up to it and sitting in it, but doesn't waste money in the transitional spaces between. It was built for $280 million in 2021 USD.

Image
Image

SurlyLHT
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby SurlyLHT » September 28th, 2021, 7:20 am

We can start this discussion again...not sure if it's time for a new thread?

"Better start hiring the architects.

Owners don't get into this game without looking at ways to maximize revenue. That can be generated through a state-of-the-art facility with all the bells, whistles and price points. Lore and Rodriguez are no different.

Yes, you are correct. Target Center underwent a $145 million renovation that was completed in 2017. There are new seats, an updated scoreboard and a nice sound system. Guess what? I can vacuum the floor of my Chevy and repair the cigar burns on the seats. At the end of the day, it's still a Chevy. Target Center was originally built in 1990, so it's not surprising that the new owners would want an upgrade.

The team's lease to play in Target Center expires after the 2034-35 season, with a $50 million penalty if owners choose to break it. Fifty million, however, is no huge hurdle in modern pro sports money."

https://www.startribune.com/alex-rodrig ... 600101430/

SurlyLHT
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby SurlyLHT » September 28th, 2021, 7:30 am

I say if they want a stadium they need to pay into some sort of financing mechanism for affordable housing over so many years. Then at least once the stadium is torn down we'll still have the housing. Maybe a fund which then funnels the money into different mechanisms like, Land Trusts, or etc etc...

alexschief
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby alexschief » September 28th, 2021, 9:40 am

Minneapolis shouldn't spend any public money on a new arena. But the city shouldn't reject this idea at all. When billionaire owners and sports teams get involved, there's a force of gravity that can help get a lot of other things happen. Modern stadium deals are more real estate plays than anything else. Lore made news recently with a wacky idea to build a new city in the desert, but he could be encouraged instead to put his money into building in the existing city where he now owns a sports franchise.

The public cost of US Bank Stadium was absurd and indefensible, but it is undeniable that that project became a catalyst for a much greater transformation Downtown East than could've happened piecemeal. In the case of the Target Center, I'd look for a way to turn a new basketball arena into a total rebuild and revitalization of the area currently occupied by the stub end of I-394 (fill it in) and the A, B, and C ramps (tear the latter two down).

tedlanda2571
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby tedlanda2571 » September 28th, 2021, 10:06 am

I'd be interested to see them try for a new arena, just to see how it went down/if the atmosphere has changed. I honestly don't know.

My gut feel on team support is that if it all had to re-done today that the Vikings could still manage to get a stadium financed (although it would be harder), but that the Twins are darn lucky they got it done 15 years ago. Even the Loons stadium, with a <very> attractive financing proposal (vast majority privately financed), wasn't exactly a slam dunk, and that's a sport where interest in on a steep uptrend.

While the NBA might (?) still be more attractive than the MLB, it seems this town has a total disdain for the Timberwolves, and I'm having a hard time envisioning the political forces that would go to bat for them.

But that's just me, someone who, over the past 10 years, has lost 100% of my once fairly high interest in spectator sports...

SurlyLHT
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby SurlyLHT » September 28th, 2021, 10:29 am

I'd be interested to see them try for a new arena, just to see how it went down/if the atmosphere has changed. I honestly don't know.

My gut feel on team support is that if it all had to re-done today that the Vikings could still manage to get a stadium financed (although it would be harder), but that the Twins are darn lucky they got it done 15 years ago. Even the Loons stadium, with a <very> attractive financing proposal (vast majority privately financed), wasn't exactly a slam dunk, and that's a sport where interest in on a steep uptrend.

While the NBA might (?) still be more attractive than the MLB, it seems this town has a total disdain for the Timberwolves, and I'm having a hard time envisioning the political forces that would go to bat for them.

But that's just me, someone who, over the past 10 years, has lost 100% of my once fairly high interest in spectator sports...
I agree, if they had a winning season or two things may be different. Sometimes, I wonder what the point of them playing is...given they are so bad.

Downtown has much less open space then years ago. There is some opportunity near 394 however as mentioned.

uptownbro
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby uptownbro » September 28th, 2021, 10:34 am

I guess it depends on that the possible plan would be. Would we get to expand the plaza in front of target field and remove parts of 394? If so then I can maybe get behind a new stadium. Really I find it a hard sell when the team has been so bad for so long. I also dont for see the nba approving them moving. The NBA seems far more in favor of expanding these days then moving. The list of cities is pretty small. KC maybe?

SurlyLHT
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby SurlyLHT » September 28th, 2021, 10:43 am

I guess it depends on that the possible plan would be. Would we get to expand the plaza in front of target field and remove parts of 394? If so then I can maybe get behind a new stadium. Really I find it a hard sell when the team has been so bad for so long. I also dont for see the nba approving them moving. The NBA seems far more in favor of expanding these days then moving. The list of cities is pretty small. KC maybe?
Is there room to stick them next to the Loon's Stadium?

uptownbro
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby uptownbro » September 28th, 2021, 10:45 am

I doubt that area would be open to even more stadium driven change

thespeedmccool
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby thespeedmccool » September 28th, 2021, 11:05 am

Whatever deal is struck, there needs to be an agreement that a new stadium will be somewhere in Minneapolis or St. Paul (or maaaaybe the Bloomington South Loop.) A suburban stadium should be a no go. I'm pretty pro-public-stadium-financing, but that doesn't mean the Wolves should get a blank check to build some plastic box surrounded by 10,000 parking spaces in Shakopee. Let's leverage this into an opportunity to transform some part of town like what U.S. Bank did for East Downtown, Target Field helped do for the North Loop, and Allianz is doing for Midway.

I like the idea of tearing up/capping 394 Downtown near Royalston. I had another idea though too: that Sears site near the Capitol is in the process of master planning, maybe the Wolves could be financiers for a new urban neighborhood.

tedlanda2571
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby tedlanda2571 » September 28th, 2021, 11:37 am

I agree, if they had a winning season or two things may be different. Sometimes, I wonder what the point of them playing is...given they are so bad.
The last time I went to a Timberwolves game (4-5 years ago now?), my most vivid memory was the sound. Or lack of it. For the vast majority of the game, the loudest sound in the arena was the squeaking of shoes on the court. I mean, it was a TOMB.

...we'd gotten some pretty decent 'free' tickets (what a deal!), and were about 10-12 rows up not far from mid-court. I'd had a few beers but still managed to catch one of the t-shirts shot out of Crunch's t-shirt launcher. In my buzzed state, I caught it and immediately threw it back onto the court. I probably got the crowd's loudest cheer of the night.

...not to mention that security did nothing. One of my friends told me after that generally if you throw anything onto the court, you get ejected immediately. Granted, they weren't playing at that moment and it was just a rolled up t-shirt, but in my mind it represented the apathy of the security team as well.

MNdible
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby MNdible » September 28th, 2021, 11:53 am

Not that there's much room over there, but many cities get some synergy by locating their arenas immediately adjacent to their convention centers, allowing very large conventions to use the arena for events.

Presumably the new arena will have a physically larger footprint than the existing one, which means it won't fit on a single city block. (Not that Target Center actually fits on its block).

SurlyLHT
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Re: Target Center Renovation

Postby SurlyLHT » September 28th, 2021, 12:07 pm

501 Royalston Ave, Minneapolis, MN 55405


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