Target Field Station (the Hotel) & Target Field Station (the Station)

[mulad]

I think there may be some crossed wires here with talk of SPUD vs. The Interchange. The Union Depot is supposed to have some amount of retail inside, though I'm not sure how much. At the Interchange, there will opportunities for retail down at street level just west of Target Field. I'm not sure how much will actually get built, however.

I think this angle shows it the best -- Retail structures should be able to line the plaza area a bit and may tuck under the new western set of platforms.

interchange-rendering.jpg

[MNdible]

Yes, they've hired somebody to manage and lease the retail component at SPUD. I'm just concerned that they're going to be buried inside that big building and nobody will find them. It's a bit like a festival marketplace -- they were huge in the early 1980's, and now, most of them are hugely empty of retail.

I guess this conversation should probably be in the SPUD thread.

[mulad]

The Interchange folks sent out a newsletter today saying that the Environmental Services Building has now been demolished down to the foundation, which is still in the process of getting chipped away.

[MSP]

I was on a bus this morning and could see the tops of backhoes in the the area From the 4th street ramp. They must be doing something down there...

[Wedgeguy]

I was on a bus this morning and could see the tops of backhoes in the the area From the 4th street ramp. They must be doing something down there...

Was to the Twins game the other day, they have the building knocked down and now are removing the old foundation and I'm sure working to dig out new footing for the undergound parking and the plaza above!

[1200onthemall]

http://www.planetizen.com/node/58529
Good story about the thinking behind The Interchange.

[mattaudio]

86% of Metro Transit's riders are taking a bus, not a train. The Interchange makes no provision for bus riders. So no matter how much archibabble you write about it, it is a failure as a transit station. But yeah, maybe you've built a nice enough park that people will want to hang out there even though it's right next to a garbage burner.

How is it a failure? So 14% are non-bus riders? Most of that is on one line? So let's say 10% is Hiawatha... with 4 future lines passing here and multiple heavy rail services, this could easily see 40%+ passengers passing by each day? Sure sounds more effective than any bus terminal. Plus successful bus facilities seem to be corridors such as Marq 2 and Nic Mall, not stations which are a necessity for rail transit. In fact, bus stations have been failures such as Gateway Ramp, the ABC Ramp bus facilities, and Leamington TC.

The only potential failures I see are... Next to garbage burner (and I hope this integrates well if the garbage burner comes down someday and we can reconnect 5th/7th/Royalston in that spot) and not enough provisions for heavy rail platforms for expansion.

[Nathan]

The images from the article are nice to see! Helps lay everything out for the brain to wrap around the use of space.







I find the 'loft walk' to be very interesting... I wonder how Shapco feels knowing that every developer would love a slice of their property? Couldn't it be a great profit for them to relocate? Say into the Ford building or another North Loop warehouse?

[Nathan]

Also, couldn't the north side of the HERC be an awesome public art canvas?

[Le Sueur]

The images from the article are nice to see! Helps lay everything out for the brain to wrap around the use of space.

You beat me to the punch, I was about to link these here. Also, thanks to 1200onthemall for posting the link. Nice to see a couple of new angles. Does anyone know where the line is between what is currently being built and private development being hoped for? I was under the assumption that the building West of the "The Square" was not currently being built, but hoping I'm wrong?

[Nathan]

I think that is a phase two type building. I believe they are hoping for a hotel!

[woofner]

How is it a failure? So 14% are non-bus riders? Most of that is on one line? So let's say 10% is Hiawatha... with 4 future lines passing here and multiple heavy rail services, this could easily see 40%+ passengers passing by each day? Sure sounds more effective than any bus terminal. Plus successful bus facilities seem to be corridors such as Marq 2 and Nic Mall, not stations which are a necessity for rail transit. In fact, bus stations have been failures such as Gateway Ramp, the ABC Ramp bus facilities, and Leamington TC.

Unfortunately, the more successful the rail services are, the worse the Interchange will be for bus riders. That's because the Interchange is a logical transfer point from Southwest and Bottineau at least to Northside buses. These services will come in from the west and this is the first point they'll get close to those buses going north (i.e. the 5 and the 22). The Interchange plan doesn't even mention moving the 7th St N bus stop to the end of Twins promenade, which is the least they could do for transit riders.

But that's only dealing with the most likely reality. There's a real possibility that the Bottineau LPA won't be built due to local opposition. Building the Interchange without any adaptability for BRT means that a BRT plan B couldn't be built, not to mention a Hwy 55 BRT that could probably be built today if anyone were thinking about it. Etc etc.

Btw, I disagree that Nicollet Mall is a success for transit. It's definitely a success for pedestrians and urban design, but it's overcapacity at peak today - imagine what it was like 30 years ago when the buses on it had twice the peak hour frequency. No wonder transit took a dump in the last century if Nicollet Mall was the best we could do for it.

[MNdible]

Btw, I disagree that Nicollet Mall is a success for transit. It's definitely a success for pedestrians and urban design, but it's overcapacity at peak today - imagine what it was like 30 years ago when the buses on it had twice the peak hour frequency. No wonder transit took a dump in the last century if Nicollet Mall was the best we could do for it.

Do you still think that Nicollet Mall is over-capacity, now that some of the routes have been moved over to Marq-2? If it is, I'm not sure how we would go about fixing it -- I don't think we could reasonably double-lane it like Marq-2 without ruining the pedestrian experience.

[mattaudio]

I'd rather see buses off Nicollet down the road... multiple streetcar lines in dedicated ROW (Hennepin, Nicollet, Chicago, Broadway, Central, and University SE) interlined on Nicollet Mall and nothing else. Couldn't Marq 2 and Hennepin handle all the N/S buses?

[tabletop]

Unfortunately, the more successful the rail services are, the worse the Interchange will be for bus riders. That's because the Interchange is a logical transfer point from Southwest and Bottineau at least to Northside buses. These services will come in from the west and this is the first point they'll get close to those buses going north (i.e. the 5 and the 22). The Interchange plan doesn't even mention moving the 7th St N bus stop to the end of Twins promenade, which is the least they could do for transit riders.

But that's only dealing with the most likely reality. There's a real possibility that the Bottineau LPA won't be built due to local opposition. Building the Interchange without any adaptability for BRT means that a BRT plan B couldn't be built, not to mention a Hwy 55 BRT that could probably be built today if anyone were thinking about it. Etc etc.

It is my belief that an extension of the Blue Line north on Lyndale to Broadway would alleviate the messieness of bus transfers at the Interchange. Broadway and Lyndale would not only be the perfect location for a Park and Ride for commuters going into Downtown from 94, but also a great transfer point from the buses to LRT. There's plenty of room to do it (cub food parking lot), lot's of bus traffic, it would be a great gateway to the Northside and would spur serious economic development into an area that needs it, be a great way to get to Northeast or vis-a-vis from the Light Rail and would open up the backbone of our future transit system to the most transit heavy users, and I think it would be easy to build... I could go on.

But especially with the Bottineau corridors future in question, we should start looking at other possibilities to maximize the usage and effectiveness of this beautiful new inter-modal facility. If Bottineau does get built in any alignment, along with Southwest, adding an extension up Lyndale to Boadway would set up that region to prosper around transit and make the Interchange a very popular destination indeed. And a way to do it would be run every other Blue and Green line train up to the Boadway Station, seeing as the head ways of the trains running through the core cities probably wouldn't be justifiable going out to Eden Prairie and Brooklyn Park, this would be more cost effective by giving them a place to go and pick up more passengers and potentially reduce the operational cost's of Southwest and Bottineau, plus transfers to the Northwest and Southwest metro would be quick and easy.

Here's a map to show how it would connect to the region. http://goo.gl/maps/Xs1kv

[woofner]

Do you still think that Nicollet Mall is over-capacity, now that some of the routes have been moved over to Marq-2? If it is, I'm not sure how we would go about fixing it -- I don't think we could reasonably double-lane it like Marq-2 without ruining the pedestrian experience.

As someone who has sat in a line of buses 7 deep on Nicollet at rush hour, yes it is over capacity. Actually, my conception of the capacity of downtown transit routes comes from this document. If I remember right, it stated that Marq 2 would be close to capacity pretty much right off the bat, and that Nicollet was over capacity already, and that Hennepin would be close to capacity by 2013. I'll try to look it over again this weekend and see what my memory has distorted, or someone else can feel free to look through it and post their comments.

If my memory is not too off base, that means the problem can't be solved by shifting routes from street to street, and that isn't really ideal from a routing perspective anyway. (Although a possibility may be rerouting the 10 to 3rd Ave; that's not ideal for system legibility though and it would kill the Free Ride bus) I'm thinking over the possibilities for a n-s route in East Downtown, most likely Chicago, but the forced transfer to the core would probably not be good for ridership.

So - get your smirk ready - that leaves the bus tunnel option. Sure, it would probably be expensive, but it may not be ludicrously expensive and the state has spent comparable amounts on roads with comparable amounts of traffic (35-40k per day if you combine bus boarding and pedestrian count data, which admittedly probably overstates it a bit).

[MNdible]

Looking at it critically, I don't think the bus tunnel is a bad idea, although I'd have a lot of concerns about it's execution. Unlike the theoretical Bottineau Underground, this would probably need to be a cut and cover tunnel, so it probably messes with all sorts of utility issues, and the vertical circulation and the experience of these underground bus stops are problematic. But I certainly wouldn't dismiss it out of hand (or smirk at it), and I'd wager that you're probably right -- it would be a good return on investment.

That said, it's not going to happen next year, or probably even in the next 10 years. It seems like there are some operational / cultural things that could be done to make things move much more smoothly. It's probably a good idea to hire a consultant to analyze the flow of traffic and what are the impediments.

[mattaudio]

Why don't we get more buses to run in a southeast/northwest direction instead of southwest/northeast? We have a lot more capacity for buses on the streets than we do on the avenues.

[FISHMANPET]

What about some super frequent higher capacity streetcars or something running up and down these streets, dumping into a bus terminal on one end or the other of downtown where people can catch their express buses.? Then in the winter people can be waiting in a heated bus depot rather than a shelter in the outdoors.

[mattaudio]

I thought this had been considered before and turned down, and that it was the reasoning behind the Leamington, Gateway, and ABC Ramp depots. My guess is it's a big transfer penalty to take a circulator to a depot and get on your express bus. Despite waiting in the elements, the express buses usually show up so often that it's not a big deal to wait outside for 5 min and having a shorter walk to the transit spine makes up for the loss.