Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Parks, Minneapolis Public Schools, Density, Zoning, etc.
martykoessel
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby martykoessel » February 18th, 2021, 4:43 pm

Is there a racial aspect to this issue? Is the course heavily used by people of color? I've seen lots of Save the Hiawatha Course signs near the golf course itself, but given the neighborhood, my assumption would be that these would be nearly all white households.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby SurlyLHT » February 18th, 2021, 4:53 pm

I was trying to see how many 18 hole golf course the Parks Board has. Then I noticed most of the golf courses are outside of the city? Meadowbrook, Theo Wirth and Francis Gross and Fort Snelling? If these course don't happen to be profitable, I don't see why they should be open. Some of this land is worth a fortune. Meadowbrook and Fort Snelling aren't even that close to the city limits and the real estate must be especially valuable. Theo Wirth is part of a larger park, but I don't see why the others can't be sold. I know some of the communities may get upset to potentially lose the green space, but if they aren't the best use of Park Board assets they're not.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby SurlyLHT » February 18th, 2021, 4:54 pm

Is there a racial aspect to this issue? Is the course heavily used by people of color? I've seen lots of Save the Hiawatha Course signs near the golf course itself, but given the neighborhood, my assumption would be that these would be nearly all white households.
If you read the Strib Article it explains that the course has a history with African American golfers. With that said, the signs are all over white homeowners yards in South Mpls...and I've only seen one in my North Mpls neighborhood.

MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby MNdible » February 18th, 2021, 6:20 pm

Some of this land is worth a fortune. Meadowbrook and Fort Snelling aren't even that close to the city limits and the real estate must be especially valuable.
I don't golf, but I also don't love to crap on it like a lot of people on the forum. That said, the Fort Snelling course really couldn't be much closer to the city limits without being in them. The land isn't actually owned by the Park Board, it's leased from the DNR who inherited it from the federal government when they shut down the fort. It's probably not worth very much at all, because any development there would be quite limited based on its adjacency to the airport and historical restrictions.

EOst
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby EOst » February 19th, 2021, 10:41 am

Not to mention that the Park Board has a "no net loss of parkland" policy, which means that selling park land for redevelopment is virtually impossible.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby SurlyLHT » February 19th, 2021, 10:51 am

Not to mention that the Park Board has a "no net loss of parkland" policy, which means that selling park land for redevelopment is virtually impossible.
If this policy would prohibit them from selling Meadowbrook then it should be revised. At least in 2018 the course lost $1.1 Million.

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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby EOst » February 19th, 2021, 11:10 am

The Park Board is not a money-making venture--if it were, it should be ripping out playgrounds and wildlife areas, which are pure money pits. If they don't need significant capital investment (a big if), golf courses are almost always more profitable than whatever else they could do with that land while keeping it a park.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby SurlyLHT » February 19th, 2021, 11:24 am

Meadowbrook is an asset, which could be sold and the money from that can be used to reinvest in parks within the city boundaries. It's not about profit-making, but best utilization of assets to serve those who pay MPRB taxes. (Which are almost as much as for the MPD) The park blocks from my house doesn't even have a functional basketball hoops. We also need more programming to help build community and keep kids off the street.

amiller92
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby amiller92 » February 19th, 2021, 11:39 am

Is there a racial aspect to this issue? Is the course heavily used by people of color? I've seen lots of Save the Hiawatha Course signs near the golf course itself, but given the neighborhood, my assumption would be that these would be nearly all white households.
Part of the argument has always been that the course was open to black people while many others were not. I was interested in reading Commissioners French and Vetow's comments, because I had mostly seen that argument made by white people and it was hard to tell if it was pretextual.

The Vetow quotes sound right to me - figuring out exactly how to commemorate that history should be part of this compromise.

uptownbro
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby uptownbro » February 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

The history does need to be communicated and its important to the area but I also dont see how that cant be done even if its switched from a 18 to a 9 hole.
Could anyone give some insight on this?

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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby EOst » February 19th, 2021, 12:05 pm

Meadowbrook is an asset, which could be sold and the money from that can be used to reinvest in parks within the city boundaries. It's not about profit-making, but best utilization of assets to serve those who pay MPRB taxes. (Which are almost as much as for the MPD) The park blocks from my house doesn't even have a functional basketball hoops. We also need more programming to help build community and keep kids off the street.
The "no net loss" principle is the foundational rule of the Park Board, and also of most of the major park agencies in the region. Selling parks to pay for the upkeep of other parks is a losing game. If you don't want Meadowbrook around, imagine what it could be as a public park instead of a golf course.

Apropos of nothing, if you have strong opinions on local governments running or redeveloping golf courses... https://maplewoodmn.gov/2041/Century-Av ... Properties

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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby John21 » February 19th, 2021, 12:20 pm

The history does need to be communicated and its important to the area but I also dont see how that cant be done even if its switched from a 18 to a 9 hole.
Could anyone give some insight on this?
As a golfer, the preference is always to play 18 holes. Having 18 holes also allows more people to be on the course. We have a great park system in this city, not only because of the land that was fortunately set aside, but also because of the variety of uses.

The pumping of water is what is brought up most about this course. I think 2014 was the big flood. Not sure if there was another one before that as I've only been in the hood since 2010. I guess what I'm most curious about is, is the pumping bad, and how much does it cost? Also, a big portion of south Mpls streets drain their storm water and the garbage that flows with it into Lake Hiawatha. Is the golf course taking a hit because of that?

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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby NickP » February 19th, 2021, 12:56 pm

Divided Minneapolis Park Board panel approves cutting Hiawatha Golf Course to nine holes
Commissioners voted 3-2 on Wednesday, with white members voting in favor and Black members against, to advance the plan to the full board.
The vote divide doesn’t look too good.

amiller92
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby amiller92 » February 19th, 2021, 1:33 pm

As a golfer, the preference is always to play 18 holes. Having 18 holes also allows more people to be on the course. We have a great park system in this city, not only because of the land that was fortunately set aside, but also because of the variety of uses.

The pumping of water is what is brought up most about this course. I think 2014 was the big flood. Not sure if there was another one before that as I've only been in the hood since 2010. I guess what I'm most curious about is, is the pumping bad, and how much does it cost? Also, a big portion of south Mpls streets drain their storm water and the garbage that flows with it into Lake Hiawatha. Is the golf course taking a hit because of that?
2019 was bad too and despite a relatively dry summer of 2020, we need to expect a wetter future due to climate change. The extra water needs to go somewhere, and one obvious place is in the swamp where we're having a hard time keeping a golf course dry. Especially where the primary alternative is upstream basements and washed out streets. Long term, the master plan calls for variety of changes that should increase the Creek's ability to hold more water without flooding.

Otherwise, the pumping uses a bunch of power and involves pumping surface water off the gold course and into the lake. I'd bet it's picking up fertilizer and chemicals used on the course when it does.

LakeCharles
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby LakeCharles » February 19th, 2021, 2:35 pm

Meadowbrook is an asset, which could be sold and the money from that can be used to reinvest in parks within the city boundaries. It's not about profit-making, but best utilization of assets to serve those who pay MPRB taxes. (Which are almost as much as for the MPD) The park blocks from my house doesn't even have a functional basketball hoops. We also need more programming to help build community and keep kids off the street.
The "no net loss" principle is the foundational rule of the Park Board, and also of most of the major park agencies in the region. Selling parks to pay for the upkeep of other parks is a losing game. If you don't want Meadowbrook around, imagine what it could be as a public park instead of a golf course.

Apropos of nothing, if you have strong opinions on local governments running or redeveloping golf courses... https://maplewoodmn.gov/2041/Century-Av ... Properties
No net loss makes sense within the city. But Meadowbrook's entrance is 3 miles from the closest part of Minneapolis. And we're paying $3 million for it every single year.

Imagine a world where Meadowbrook was not owned by the Park Board, and they decided to spend $50 million to acquire land outside the city, and $3 million every year to operate it mostly for the use of suburban residents. People would be rightfully livid that Minneapolis was paying millions to subsidize Edina golfers instead of devoting that money to pretty much anything else.

SurlyLHT
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby SurlyLHT » February 19th, 2021, 3:18 pm

Meadowbrook is an asset, which could be sold and the money from that can be used to reinvest in parks within the city boundaries. It's not about profit-making, but best utilization of assets to serve those who pay MPRB taxes. (Which are almost as much as for the MPD) The park blocks from my house doesn't even have a functional basketball hoops. We also need more programming to help build community and keep kids off the street.
The "no net loss" principle is the foundational rule of the Park Board, and also of most of the major park agencies in the region. Selling parks to pay for the upkeep of other parks is a losing game. If you don't want Meadowbrook around, imagine what it could be as a public park instead of a golf course.

Apropos of nothing, if you have strong opinions on local governments running or redeveloping golf courses... https://maplewoodmn.gov/2041/Century-Av ... Properties
No net loss makes sense within the city. But Meadowbrook's entrance is 3 miles from the closest part of Minneapolis. And we're paying $3 million for it every single year.

Imagine a world where Meadowbrook was not owned by the Park Board, and they decided to spend $50 million to acquire land outside the city, and $3 million every year to operate it mostly for the use of suburban residents. People would be rightfully livid that Minneapolis was paying millions to subsidize Edina golfers instead of devoting that money to pretty much anything else.
Sell it and put the proceeds in the Mpls Parks Foundation. I don't know what the property is worth, but the Park Foundation has only raised $22 million since 2003 per their website.

MNdible
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby MNdible » February 19th, 2021, 3:30 pm

2019 was bad too and despite a relatively dry summer of 2020, we need to expect a wetter future due to climate change. The extra water needs to go somewhere, and one obvious place is in the swamp where we're having a hard time keeping a golf course dry. Especially where the primary alternative is upstream basements and washed out streets. Long term, the master plan calls for variety of changes that should increase the Creek's ability to hold more water without flooding.

Otherwise, the pumping uses a bunch of power and involves pumping surface water off the gold course and into the lake. I'd bet it's picking up fertilizer and chemicals used on the course when it does.
I don't know that water storage capacity is really the issue here, since there's an easy path down the creek for water to get to the Mississippi -- I just think the elevation of the golf course is too low relative to Lake Hiawatha. As I understand it, they're proposing to raise the elevation of the 9 remaining holes to help with this problem. Not that I'd advocate for it, but you could imagine raising the elevation of all 18 holes (it would require trucking in a lot of fill or dredging out the lake).

I've also heard an argument that the outlet from Lake Hiawatha into Minnehaha is dammed artificially high, and is therefore raising the water table in this immediate area. I haven't looked at this condition in person and so don't know if this is accurate or not.

amiller92
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby amiller92 » February 19th, 2021, 4:18 pm


I don't know that water storage capacity is really the issue here, since there's an easy path down the creek for water to get to the Mississippi -- I just think the elevation of the golf course is too low relative to Lake Hiawatha. As I understand it, they're proposing to raise the elevation of the 9 remaining holes to help with this problem. Not that I'd advocate for it, but you could imagine raising the elevation of all 18 holes (it would require trucking in a lot of fill or dredging out the lake).

I've also heard an argument that the outlet from Lake Hiawatha into Minnehaha is dammed artificially high, and is therefore raising the water table in this immediate area. I haven't looked at this condition in person and so don't know if this is accurate or not.
It is both. When there's too much water, it goes over the berm and onto the parts of the course that are below the lake level. Removing the berm and allowing those areas to contain water increases water storage capacity.

The Barr engineering report said that the limiting factor for the level of the lake is either the gas pipes just below 28th Ave or a rock weir (some rocks along the bank and across the creek, placed at an unknown time) under the 31st Ave footbridge. This has led to some confusion in some who keep opining incorrectly about possible remediation in the down stream creek flow (do not get your creek water facts from Ed Felein or the South Side Pride).

Anondson
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby Anondson » February 19th, 2021, 4:34 pm


Sell it and put the proceeds in the Mpls Parks Foundation. I don't know what the property is worth, but the Park Foundation has only raised $22 million since 2003 per their website.
Met Council has funding for acquiring land for the regional park system. Sell Meadowbrook to Three Rivers and Met Council.

HKM
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Re: Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board

Postby HKM » February 19th, 2021, 6:59 pm


No net loss makes sense within the city. But Meadowbrook's entrance is 3 miles from the closest part of Minneapolis. And we're paying $3 million for it every single year.

Imagine a world where Meadowbrook was not owned by the Park Board, and they decided to spend $50 million to acquire land outside the city, and $3 million every year to operate it mostly for the use of suburban residents. People would be rightfully livid that Minneapolis was paying millions to subsidize Edina golfers instead of devoting that money to pretty much anything else.
Where is the $3 million figure from? The 2019 MPRB financial report (https://www.minneapolisparks.org/wp-con ... Report.pdf) page 92 shows Meadowbrook had a $93,007 loss and MPRB had a $1.34M loss on $5.41M of revenue on all golf activities.


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