29th Street Reconstruction Project

[David Greene]

How can you not think it is absurd? What could five people making 80K per year study for 365 days? It is going to cost X to repave the street, Y to tear it up and plant sod. If I got three estimates for each, it might take me (alone) a day to figure out the best option.

You're greatly simplifying what needs to be looked at. There will be traffic counts, scenario design, modeling and so on. I do like the idea of just putting up temporary stuff to see what happens.

This is another example of people not understanding what transportation costs.

[garfield]

How can you not think it is absurd? What could five people making 80K per year study for 365 days? It is going to cost X to repave the street, Y to tear it up and plant sod. If I got three estimates for each, it might take me (alone) a day to figure out the best option.

You're greatly simplifying what needs to be looked at. There will be traffic counts, scenario design, modeling and so on. I do like the idea of just putting up temporary stuff to see what happens.

This is another example of people not understanding what transportation costs.

Actually, I do understand what transportation costs. And it seems as if a lot of the cost is waste. Just think of the transportation network we could have if we eliminated the wasted money.

Traffic counts? Someone delivers the strip in the road that counts the cars that drive over it. Very inexpensive. Even if someone sat in a running car, counting cars for a whole week, you are under $5,000, including overhead. I doubt scenario design would be included in this "study." Maybe they will sketch a couple of options, but most design work will come after the decision is made, and the costs will be included in the project's costs, not the $350K for this study. Modeling and forecasting, sounds fancy, but probably not really necessary in this scenario. Since this is a relatively short stretch of a very quiet street, it definitely shouldn't cost hundreds of thousands to figure out the current usage, and forecast where the cars will go if this street is pedestrianized.

Again, I understand that it is expensive to build things, especially infrastructure and transportation projects. But if we are smarter in the way we spend our money, we will have much more to show for it. Take the money used to "study" projects and spend it ON the project, and we will be a much better city.

[Rich]

NYC’s High Line was invoked as a model. So I think they envision something well beyond just new pavement and some grass. And since they’re still trying to sell stakeholders on the idea, wouldn’t the “study” have to include some rough design work and some nifty architectural drawings?

[woofner]

Public Works did counts in the summer of 2012. Considering how few cars actually use the street (1,000 or less a day on average) I really doubt that any model could have an accurate result. With the possible exception of 28th St (which sees around 5k cars/day on this stretch) any projected impact on surrounding streets would be within the margin of error.

There's also an old intersection diagram for 29th/Lyndale that supports the idea that the street is mostly used for parking access and as a cut-through in the pm peak (gradually increasing volumes throughout the day and very heavy turning movements from Lyndale to 29th in the pm peak). No surprise there, and also no argument for keeping motor vehicle access since a) people circling for parking will circle regardless and b) cut-throughs should be discouraged.

This study better primarily be about design options or it's a complete waste of money. And even if it is primarily about design options it's mostly a waste of money.

[MNdible]

Since we're gearing this back up, I'll again state my peace. While traffic volumes are comparatively low, and it doesn't need to be (shouldn't be) a major thoroughfare, it does serve an important function for improving circulation in this immediate area. And in case you haven't noticed, we've added about 2,000 residents to the immediate area in the last couple of years.

It should be entirely possible to improve the pedestrian experience of this stretch without eliminating the important local function that it provides.

[woofner]

Please look at the numbers. Can I suggest that 'important' is a bit hyperbolic for a street that is literally used no more than any other (27th St between Pleasant and Harriet sees 200 more cars per day on average, for example)? Or do you mean important in some qualitative sense, maybe aesthetic or psychological?

Personally I'd be amenable to many designs that maintain motor vehicle access for much of the street (I'd still like to see the block between Aldrich and Lyndale made into a little square). But it seems overheated to me to imply that this street is in any way crucial.

[ECtransplant]

To the point of newly constructed residences: that just further supports the point that this is the type of dense urban area that should be emphasizing the pedestrian experience and discouraging car use

[Wedgeguy]

To the point of newly constructed residences: that just further supports the point that this is the type of dense urban area that should be emphasizing the pedestrian experience and discouraging car use

I'd have to ask if you have actually been in this area or the concept of no cars is your only thought. There is a pedestrian experience across on the north side of the greenway. I know this as I walk 2 of its blocks almost every time I walk to Rainbow. Again, there is a/will be a 6 blocks long promenade on the north side of the greenway. PS, the north side of the greenway is where a majority of your walkers will come from. They can walk along the promenade and cross which ever bridge they need to on their way south!

[Anondson]

Doesn't have to ban cars to prioritize pedestrians. There are cheap design concepts that could pull that off and still keep the tiny number of cars that use it while emphasizing its role as a pedestrian space.

[ECtransplant]

I'd have to ask if you have actually been in this area or the concept of no cars is your only thought.

I live 2 blocks away and am vehemently anti car

[Wedgeguy]

I'd have to ask if you have actually been in this area or the concept of no cars is your only thought.

I live 2 blocks away and am vehemently anti car

As do I and I walk that stretch a few times a week with little problems finding sidewalks that I can walk on. There are sidewalks on both sides of the greenway. One is a promenade on the north side and the other near the street, yes those sidewalks are set back a few feet from the street even. The only block with no decent sidewalk access is behind Rainbow. I love how some like to split atoms when there are two very pedestrian walkways along the greenway.

[mattaudio]

I drive over there a few times a week with little problem finding lanes to drive on.

[Nick]

[garfield]

Bike path and light rail/streetcar running from the Southwest Corridor to the Hiawatha line in the trench with grass and sidewalks instead of 29th...now that is what a world class city would look like! I hope Minneapolis withholds municipal consent on SW until they get guaranteed funding for one of their dream projects.

[Joe S]

I find the arguments for ensuring that cars have enough space in Uptown very frustrating. I have lived in Uptown, walked, biked, and driven across all these streets. The amount of space dedicated to cars in Uptown is several orders of magnitude greater than the space provided to pedestrians and bicyclists. If 29th were to become a pedestrian realm, can you imagine the transformation of the buildings that currently face it? Minneapolis is a small city that could easily be traversed in a very short period of time with the appropriate public transit and bike infrastructure. Having an inviting pedestrian realm could really allow Uptown to reach its urban potential.

[Wedgeguy]

Joe there is a pedestrian realm both on the greenway and the promenade on the north side of the Greenway. That walkway stretches from Aldrich to Girard.
I have to ask if any of those who feel there is not enough space to walk have ever even tried to walk thru the area. I do several times a week and have NO PROBLEMS with sidewalks, Greenway or promenade as my choices to walk.
Sorry to be beating a dead horse, but too many still are trying to revive it.

[MNdible]

I think that it's important to allow at least a single lane of through traffic on 29th street, to allow for better circulation in the neighborhood and avoid forcing people out onto Lake Street at unsignalized intersections where they'll be stuck.

I haven't studied the layout closely, nor have I developed a sweet fantasy google map, but I'd imagine that you could come up with a clever pattern of alternating single-lane one ways that could achieve this while eliminating the use of 29th as a through street. You could provide this, and perhaps maintain some on-street parking (or not), and still have an awful lot of room left over to make the best damned sidewalks that anybody's ever seen.

Not that there's really any demand for sidewalks on 29th, but oh well.

[twincitizen]

If/when the Midtown line goes in, we'll definitely want to do something different with the free parking program on 29th. That's gonna have to go away, hopefully sooner rather than later. I'm not opposed to what MNdible is proposing with keeping some local circulation functionality, as long as it isn't just circulation of vehicles looking for a free parking spot.

[TommyT]

All I know is 29th needs some improvements ASAP. Pulling into lime you have to drive through a giant hole and half the time my car bottoms out. I've started going in and out on Lyndale or through the VFW parking lot to avoid that hole. The street in general is in shambles.

[nerdljos]

Note there's an open house on the issue coming up:

29th Street Reconstruction Open House
Elan Community Room, 2837 Dupont Ave S
May 27, 6:00-7:30pm

Add it to your calendars!