29th Street Reconstruction Project

[Wedgeguy]

I too wonder where all the pedestrians on 29th Street are going to come from, they aren't there now and there is nothing to draw them there. It is a glorified alley.

I use it as an access street to either Lyn Lake or Uptown when I come down the Bryant Ave Bike Blvd which I know a lot of other people do, because it's not worth getting on the greenway, and biking on lake is less than great.

I also remember the uptown farmers market which essentially closed this same exact section of 29th, and it was great to be able to walk along this section, and it didn't seem to disrupt anything.

So we want to replicate the greenway with both walking and bike paths. I can see other neighborhood and city council people asking what are we thinking. Republicans would ask the same question, where are we going to get the money to build this, who will pay for it's maintenance, Why are we duplicating something that already exists.

[Wedgeguy]

I think thoughtful urbanism should try to strike a balance between all the different modes of transportation rather than focus on trying to eliminate the most popular one.

Just a question.. how much space in our metro area is devoted to moving autos (including buffers, runoff holding ponds, publicly maintained parking etc) vs space dedicated to bikes or pedestrians? How much space is dedicated to transit? In truth, I think we have a long way to go before a thoughtful balance is actually met. Closing off a 'glorified alley' (not just here, anywhere) should not be construed as an attempt to eliminate a mode (however popular it may be).

By the way, most of those gloried alley areas are for utilities, garbage pick up, and business deliveries also for fire safety as firetrucks use those areas when fighting fires at the back of a building! These are the reasons it takes so long for thing to get approved. You have to look beyond the obvious for the small detail that usually are the more crucial.

[Wedgeguy]

I try to take a WWJD approach to such projects - What Would (Jane) Jacobs Do? I don't recall her ever addressing this exact scenario, but it seems doubtful that looking at as dead and useless a street as 29th, she would propose that pedestrianization was the best way to spend effort and resources on a street like this. Given that it runs right along the Greenway, but is grade-separated from it and has continuous crossing conflicts with busy streets, and further has no active uses, I can't imagine who would walk it. It seems to me like any effort to develop pedestrianized streets in this stretch of the city would be better on a street with more uses - and more potential for uses - than 29th. The challenge of 29th is how to make it much more than an alley; although on the other hand I wonder if that's a challenge worth addressing when there are so many more promising streets that could be addressed first.

So really, why 29th specifically? It just seems a poor candidate. What's the problem this is meant to solve, and put in Jacobs terms, how will this activate the street?

Someone that understand reality, Thanks you!

[talindsay]

Why is it so hard to make trees grow along streets here?!? I don't think I've ever seen a mature tree on a busy commercial street in Minneapolis or St. Paul.

It probably has something to do with the massive amount of chemicals required to keep the roads clear in Minnesota winters, combined with the snow banks that don't disappear until June and reappear in November.

[exiled_antipodean]

If the street has to be repaved anyway, why not take that opportunity to make it into a woonerf and narrow the ROW. Doesn't have to be all done at once, or be sold as a big transformative project.

[talindsay]

If the street has to be repaved anyway, why not take that opportunity to make it into a woonerf and narrow the ROW. Doesn't have to be all done at once, or be sold as a big transformative project.

That makes a lot of sense, and there's certainly no harm in doing so when it needs to be redone. I saw a lot of woonerf streets in Amsterdam (though I didn't know that's what they're called until today) and they worked well.

[Wedgeguy]

If the street has to be repaved anyway, why not take that opportunity to make it into a woonerf and narrow the ROW. Doesn't have to be all done at once, or be sold as a big transformative project.

That makes a lot of sense, and there's certainly no harm in doing so when it needs to be redone. I saw a lot of woonerf streets in Amsterdam (though I didn't know that's what they're called until today) and they worked well.

Woofners would be something that's cost could be justified on Giard Avenue in front of the Walkway. It would bring vitality to the to the street presence and enhance the visual of the street itself. There is little to no vitality fronting 29th that could justify spending that kind of money. Especially in our snowy climate where snow removal would be a last priority after the street, alleys, and business sidewalks. You would really have no businesses that you could access extra on for the maintenance of your Woofners.

[twincitizen]

What part of "29th Street needs to be completely redone anyways" don't you understand?

We have a choice here:
1. Spend money to put the street back exactly as it is now, which is basically a "free" parking lot, admittedly with a few legitimate local access movements (i.e. the one MNdible described in the middle of page 2 of this thread).
2. Spend money to re-do the street as something else (not gonna say "better", because clearly that's subjective).

Are you seriously arguing that we should completely re-do this street exactly as it is today? I just want to make that clear. Doing nothing won't be an option for much longer. It needs to be rebuilt, and not just resurfaced. If you've been following the Midtown Corridor thread, it looks like new retaining walls will be put in the south side of the Greenway to allow for double-track Streetcar/LRT. We're also gonna have to deal with some drainage and snow storage issues, etc. I just want to make sure I'm clear on your argument.

[Wedgeguy]

I've already said that we have to relocate utilities, Yes, storm sewers and water mains should be replaced and upgraded for the larger volume of water that the area will need. Yes support walls will need to be rebuilt. I'm all in agreement with that. I'm just not for wasting scarce city resources on a small pet project that will do little in return except to take 29th off the city street maintenance budget and on to whose budget. You get rid of the street you are not part of the street maintenance budget. We don't even have a budget enough to fill potholes properly. As everyone know, when they fix your street your homes or businesses property taxes rise. I can tell you right now that no property owner will sit back and pay for an expensive rebuild for nothing that adds value to their property. For some it makes navigating their property more of a hassle. If you want, tell me and I'll do a block by block visual of what you will see when you walk this imaginary mall. I'll be glad to point out all the beautiful scenery that you will not be seeing as you walk this stretch! Lipstick on a pig does not make it more beautiful.

[mulad]

Ideally, redoing the street I'm a better way will result in higher property values, leading to higher tax revenue, offsetting any higher cost to construct or maintain. Also, the city has a huge road network, and this one project is not going to tip the balance very much.

[Wedgeguy]

Ideally, redoing the street I'm a better way will result in higher property values, leading to higher tax revenue, offsetting any higher cost to construct or maintain. Also, the city has a huge road network, and this one project is not going to tip the balance very much.

First you must have building that would support that. The Lime block you have a building, Aldrich to Bryant you have a half block of Blue with a half block of business parking and loading dock at the building next to it. Bryant to Colfax is one half Uptown Apartments with the other half being their tenant parking lot. Those pesky cars that no one is supposed to drive or own if they live in Uptown. Next block is Colfax to Dupont a big block long hole in the ground that is Buzza's tenant parking. Maybe someday they will build housing above the parking levels. But probably not for awhile I'd say. Dupont to Emerson you have the back side of Rainbow Foods. Look Martha, that is what they call a loading dock, so interesting. Now onto Emerson and Fremont. Half block of parking for Planned Parenthood and the other half is a block wall of Acme Machine shop. Going forward is the transit road for the buses to the bus transfer station. I think that I have given you a pretty bleak picuture of what you want to make into some great mall. It will turn in a abandoned Apache mall except that it is all outdoors and nothing that draws people to it. Again one the other side you have a trench that carries pedestrians and bikes to and from the Mississippi to the Lakes.

Again instead of having 2 properties to tax for those improvements you have one. The trench is tax exempt, no taxes from that side to help build your field of dreams. 15 to 20 years from now there might be another big building boom, but we have pretty much filled the area right now and those will have to fill and remain filled before a lot more housing gets build up along the greenway. Remember you have to deal with building setback so not all of those open spaces are going to be able to be built to their full potential. Can't block that sunshine on the greenway from that sun. Any new building going up along the south side of the greenway will have to be set back at least 15 feet like Blue and Lime are. A road block for many developers, what they can and can't build so I don't see fast progress on this side of the Greenway being redeveloped.

[Anondson]

Ideally, redoing the street I'm a better way will result in higher property values, leading to higher tax revenue, offsetting any higher cost to construct or maintain. Also, the city has a huge road network, and this one project is not going to tip the balance very much.

First you must have building that would support that.

No you don't. It sounds like you just said there should be no change until the right infrastructure is there first. There are too many examples abounding that falsify that.

I think that I have given you a pretty bleak picuture of what you want to make into some great mall.

I don't see what is so bleak. You are being over dramatic and hyperbolic. I'm not being euphemistic by saying those are simply challenges and opportunities. Look at photos of old urban markets or docks, you will see pedestrians and commercial traffic mingling just fine.

Again instead of having 2 properties to tax for those improvements you have one.

You're assuming the way this would be paid for would by taxes upon the adjacent properties, why? Are any city parks paid for by taxing the adjacent property?

[David Greene]

we have pretty much filled the area right now

Not even close. Not every development has to be housing.

[Wedgeguy]

Have you ever walked the area that I described or are you just wanting to pick a fight. I sure not want my city park to have views like that! We are looking for money for several other park that have a real purpose in the city that have the back drop that will have people going to it. Where you think they will put this land in an already scarce park budget. I'd really like you to give me some solid info and not just say its because it sounds good. I'm not being dramatic, I'm being realistic. I walked it yesterday on my way to Rainbow just so I would have first hand visual of your wonderful park. You think that all of this area along the green way will be rebuilt in the next 2 -3 years? Highly unlikely, we are heading to a catch up period with housing in the hood to see how fast these apartment fill up and what vacancy rates will be .There will need to be breathing space before most lenders will take a gamble to see if rents will stay up where they are now or if they will start to fall from oversupply.
You build it and they will come does not work in many cases. That is why there are so many buildings first owners go bankrupt because their tenants did not come. There is a wonderful park in downtown St. Paul that was supposed to be the gathering place of the city. Last I was though there is was closed up and sit vacant. There is plenty of park space within walking distance of your proposed park that can really be used as a real honest to GOD park. You want a pedestrian freeway that will get shot down by the rest of the city councilmen as a waste of scarce resources. There is already a sidewalk for people to walk on. IT is not 20 feet wide with a pergola above it , but it will get people to and from their destination. Will not add millions to the rebuild of the street. They will be spending enough just to relocate utilities, rebuilding trench walls, rebuilding storm sewers and water mains. When you have a promenade on the north side of the trench that actually has real want to be near building and landscapes I think from what I have described earlier, and will be the main views for a good many years, will deter the duplication of a functional street, and turning it into a seldom used wasteland that will only be a glorified sidewalk with no other benefits to the city. For those that BOO parking as free. They can always add metered parking and get some revenue from the street parking during the day like they do on Lake St. Bump outs for parking with real curb and gutter would make that area look a whole lot better. I give the block between Aldrich and Bryant as an example. Once Lime is done the same will be said at least of the curb and gutters. Until they decide to rebuild the street they will do minimal maintenance.

Sorry, I've seen pipedreams that have fallen flat on their faces. Riverplace, St. Anthony Main, and half the retail projects and indoor city park in downtown St. Paul. 20-30 years later we are now finally seeing real economic development along the river. But as of yet, neither Riverplace or St. Anthony main are really contributing to the area like they should. A few restaurants along the street maybe, but the rest of the non residential has a long ways to go. Please explain to me how I'm wrong with strong real facts, I like to know what I'm missing. Please don't make assumptions about the so called future, as any recession will stop that cold in it's tracks.

[Nathan]

Sorry, I've seen pipedreams that have fallen flat on their faces. Riverplace, St. Anthony Main, and half the retail projects and indoor city park in downtown St. Paul. 20-30 years later we are now finally seeing real economic development along the river. But as of yet, neither Riverplace or St. Anthony main are really contributing to the area like they should. A few restaurants along the street maybe, but the rest of the non residential has a long ways to go. Please explain to me how I'm wrong with strong real facts, I like to know what I'm missing. Please don't make assumptions about the so called future, as any recession will stop that cold in it's tracks.

I'm sorry you want everybody to stop dreaming about bettering and improving places just because you're a pessimist. Let's all just sit on our hands until the world works itself out. That'll fix it! Let's say the average road is a 3 on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best space for people ever. I'd rather propose a 10 and have it scaled back to a 6 than just propose a 3 and get a 3. Maybe that's just me.

[exiled_antipodean]

I think the Greenway itself shows that if you get the basics right, the private investment will follow.

29th St is an even easier case. The area (partly because of the Greenway) is already seeing a surge of private investment and good urban form. Since they're re-doing the street anyway, if they can re-do it in a way that builds on the success of the Greenway we're likely to see continued growth.

I think the fact that Rybak touted it in his speech leads us on this board to be more skeptical of it than we maybe should be. But it's not as politically dramatic to say you're just going to get the basics of street design in a high density area right.

[twincitizen]

I'm not being dramatic

Look, you have every right to disagree, but you are really are being dramatic about it, going on about special assessments, comparing this to Riverplace, etc. We're talking about a rebuilding a lightly used street with little to no accomodations for cars (save for a woonerf section for driveway access where necessary) that already needs to be rebuilt anyways. We're not talking about some fancy high-concept idea that's supposed to draw tourists and suburbanites that's going to "fail" if it isn't packed with people 24/7. You're either being dramatic about it and lying, or you completely misinterpret what is actually being proposed here*.

*To be fair, no one knows exactly what is being proposed here yet, outside of Rybak and a few insiders.

Let me refute a few of your main concerns:
1. It's going to be expensive, possibly involving assesments. No. The street needs to be rebuilt anyways. Whether that involves assessments to adjacent properties or not is irrelevant. Not building the street to vehicle standards could actually be cheaper than putting it back the way it is now.
2. You can't do this while Rainbow is still there. Things get built in phases all the time. The Rainbow block will simply be a missing link until they are ready to redevelop. They had a redevelopment plan before the recession. It's not currently a public street, and won't be until Rainbow is ready to redevelop and sell off a strip of land to the City. That doesn't mean we should sit on our hands and not do the other segments

[Wedgeguy]

I have no problem with them rebuilding the street. I'm all for rebuilding the street to pretty much the way it is. But I take exception to doing away with streets that will in the long run help with traffic congestion once we have a few hundred more cars in the neighborhood. 29th will be where all of the relocated utilities will be relocated Because you will be unable to put them in the trench with an active rail going thru there as has been brought up several time .This is where storm sewers and water main will most likely get located as a n area where it will be less likely to affect Lake street traffic if they need to be dig up. I want something workable. A one way west bound is my preference if the two way seems to much for most. This street does not need to be any wider than it is right now. I'd like bump outs for crossings, but with stop signs at almost every intersection this will not be a speed way to anywhere. This will be a local street for those in this neighborhood, and there will soon be a lot of us when the apartment fill up. There will be a walkway for baby strollers on the north side of the trench that will be completely finished in about 2 year. You might have to go up to 28th or across to Lagoon to reach Hennepin if you can't get yourself across a parking lot. Girard is not a thru street so you will not have to fight cars to get to a 1/2 block section of 28th that will get you to Hennepin. You have a very wide promenade called a parking lot to get to Lyndale from Aldrich or cross the bridge and walk the side walk that will be build next to the Lime. Again it is a great idea in a place where it would really do some good and pay for itself. This just is not the place and if our property taxes are to go up to build a weed patch, then I'll be that NIMBY that you will have to scream at, cuz I have a strong case on my side, HAte it or not.

[dingo]

Quick question. You say "There will be a walkway for baby strollers on the north side of the trench that will be completely finished in about 2 year."

I have not seen this anywhere. Will this be in the trench or on the North side outside of the Trench?

[Wedgeguy]

Quick question. You say "There will be a walkway for baby strollers on the north side of the trench that will be completely finished in about 2 year."

I have not seen this anywhere. Will this be in the trench or on the North side outside of the Trench?

There are 2 section that are complete right now. One next to Flux between Guiard and Fremont. The other is between Colfax and Bryant. Two more block will be finish this fall or early next spring by Track 29, Aldrich and Bryant, and the first phase of Elan between Colfax and Dupont. This will leave only the two block where the second phase of Elan are being build left to be finished. This stretches across 5 blocks of residential and fronts the greenway. To get to Hennepin you will have to walk across the Old Chicago parking lot and to get to Lyndale you will have to walk across the Egg and I parking lot because there are businesses fronting the greenway. This is all up above on the north side of the trench.