Southside - News & General Topics

[beige_box]

We urbanists talk a lot about how we want to bring back our locally owned, small stores to create a vibrant retail scene that is a destination in itself. You hear Frey talk about that vision a lot in regards to downtown and NE. I'd say the south siders and these minority groups might know something we don't.

Gee it's almost like when a developer does something other than aim for the most lucrative of all possible construction contracts, and values getting businesses into spaces quickly and affordably instead of leaving them empty for years waiting for the most lucrative of all possible tenants, you suddenly have a real city in front of you. Quelle surprise! It's almost as though these other developers that "we" "urbanists" apparently seek to empower are actually killing urban vibrancy via their extreme profit motivations. Maybe "we" "urbanists" have been systemically manipulated into functioning as an astroturf movement that's on the wrong side of the urban development debate.

Also, yes MNdible, indeed, Karmel Square is actually vibrant. And it's the real kind of vibrant, not the chain-restaurants-catering-to-upwardly-mobile-White-people kind. I'd be happy to argue with you about it instead of just echo-chambering your snark like everyone else.

[Anondson]

Maybe "we" "urbanists" have been systemically manipulated into functioning as an astroturf movement that's on the wrong side of the urban development debate.

Eek! Another "Consortium" conspiracy? Is there nothing they aren't capable of!?

Clever...

[beige_box]

I don't have any idea what you're talking about. Suffice to say, it's not a conspiracy theory to point out how easy it's been for monied real estate interests to get the "urbanist" crowd on their side, even when the outcome doesn't live up to the urbanists' own criteria. Heck, half you self-described "urbanists" are literally real estate professionals -- or at least mayoral appointee aspirants. Sorry that I don't think of this forum as just a bunch of disinterested, independent, scientifically-objective, chill grassroots activists who know the secret truth of land use that the plebes simply don't 'get.'

[Anondson]

Sorry for the failed attempt at humor. There is a rumors thread that was a source of a lot of drama that turned out to be a fantasy involving a Rochester-area person inventing personas/sockpuppets (we can't know the motives) ginning up excitement over Minneapolis development.

It was a big thing in the recent past.

[MNdible]

Also, yes MNdible, indeed, Karmel Square is actually vibrant. And it's the real kind of vibrant, not the chain-restaurants-catering-to-upwardly-mobile-White-people kind.

My point was that the vibrancy most people care about is the kind that reflects onto the streetscape and the greater urban built form. For example, I may have a kicking party going on inside my house, but it doesn't do the rest of the houses on my block a bit of good -- they just get to put up with the extra traffic and noise my party is generating.

The Sabridale is totally inwardly focused.

It's also a disaster waiting to happen. It's one thing to have a residential building be wood-framed. It's quite another when that wood-framed building contains the city's largest mosque on a an upper story, and also is packed with a bunch of congested corridors overflowing with flammable goods, stacked to the ceiling and obstructing sprinklers.

Also, thanks for the race-baiting! That really adds to the conversation.

[beige_box]

Also, thanks for the race-baiting! That really adds to the conversation.

So now 'mentioning race at all' = "race-baiting"? Your sarcasm aside, yes, I do think it's worth discussing whether or not most new development is disproportionately catered to White people, or at least White-dominated business interests (hint: it is!). It's a bit of a red flag for me when folks try to use the "race-baiting" charge as a smokescreen to shut down conversations about equity. BUT if you'd rather, I could say "disproportionately catered to wealthy/upwardly-mobile people, who in Minneapolis, for totally random and unknowable reasons that absolutely have nothing whatsoever have to do with racism, happen to be disproportionately White".

Anyway....

My point was that the vibrancy most people care about is the kind that reflects onto the streetscape and the greater urban built form. For example, I may have a kicking party going on inside my house, but it doesn't do the rest of the houses on my block a bit of good -- they just get to put up with the extra traffic and noise my party is generating.

The Sabridale is totally inwardly focused.

The only difference is that Karmel Square is not, you know, a private residence. All you have to do is walk through that gate, and you may freely exchange U.S. dollars for the goods and services offered by the businesses there. Shocker, right? Turns out, contrary to Fox News, it's not actually a "no-go zone"! And comparing a half-block building-with-a-parking-ramp to a multi-acre suburban-style mall is equally farcical. Where's your complaints about Calhoun Square? Or any of the several Latino-oriented indoor markets in Midtown? Or, uh, the much-lauded Midtown Global Market?

I'll let you respond to that before I get on your case about your use of "most people".

[RailBaronYarr]

I won't necessarily take a side on this one, but it's worth pointing our that Calhoun Square has a fairly decent street presence in addition to an indoor mall area. Most tenants along the outside have entrances on both sides (Jimmy John's, Francesca's, H&M, etc) which is a really great design if you ask me. Even the Girard meander mixes public and private space pretty well with Chang Mai Thai and Famous Dave's having patios and doors facing the walkway. If not for the crummy little parking/loading area east of CB2, Calhoun Square would have active fronts or quality windows on all 3 of its street faces and then some facing a damn parking garage. If half a skinny block of a parking garage facing 31st St is all we end up with long term once the nasty lot along Lake is redeveloped, I'd say this would be one of the best small-scale urban malls serving regional and local folk I can think of, ignoring the chain:local ratio and race of patrons/owners..

The Midtown Global Market may not be as activated as CS, but still has at least an entrance on each side, some patio seating, connections to the Greenway, and decent window coverage. At least a "better" (as defined by ability to activate public spaces, keep eyes on the street, or any other such urban metrics) than Karmel Square does.

I share your enthusiasm for the good things Karmel Square is doing, and I do think we should be less idealistic in pushing for a particular style of vibrancy via heavy-handed design language. But MNdible is also right in his concerns of the building's safety. It's why I'm much bigger on building code than zoning code.

[MNdible]

If you're really concerned about inequity, maybe some of the chilling comments that Sabri made in the original article should be of more concern than the fact that urbanists don't like this building (because they're white, obviously).

While the "comparable" examples you mention do have problems, and people on this forum have called them out accordingly, it's really no contest in terms of design and interaction with the public realm. Really not even close. This is a bad building.

And I'll save you the trouble on "most people". I meant "most people on this forum that you're talking to who care about urban issues".

[Anondson]

If you aren't pedantically specific about every interpretation of what you type, then you are problematic. Only possible response is to be called out with snark. Clearly.

[FISHMANPET]

Wait what chilling comments did Sabri make? He talked about women being entrepreneurs, nothing else (as far as I can tell).

[MNdible]

This is the bit I was recollecting, which on second read only sounds bad when it's colored by Sabri's history of taking advantage of his tenants:

He charmed his way past tenants and their customers, pressing shoulders, dishing out compliments, always moving. He told a father his young daughter was beautiful, called older women “Mama” and fended off conversations with shop owners. “They’re very aggressive,” he whispered.

A woman stopped him outside her clothing store and asked for another window onto the corridor.

“OK, sister, it’s on the list,” Sabri said. “It’s not a top priority. Look, you got a beautiful glass, you need a little more glass? We’ll take care of it. Don’t worry. Insha’Allah.”

[beige_box]

If you're really concerned about inequity, maybe some of the chilling comments that Sabri made in the original article should be of more concern than the fact that urbanists don't like this building (because they're white, obviously).

A) My we *are* touchy on the race issue, aren't we? I never said that urbanists don't like this building because they're white (though it is awfully candid of you to admit that self-described "urbanists" are a pretty uniform bunch). All I did was correctly point out that most new developments happening in Minneapolis disproportionately serve White people. That's a problem. I'm sorry if that makes you all butthurt for pointing out the blind spots of your chosen hobby-ideology.

B) I would love for you to articulate what, exactly, makes Sabri's comments in the article "chilling." Not trying to defend him from all the various accusations that have been made against him elsewhere, but all I'm seeing here is someone interacting with members of a particular community as is customary for that particular community. He seems keen on portraying himself as a nice guy.

(And as an aside: what alternative is there to Sabri, when it comes to building low-overhead business space for new immigrants and others who lack the generational wealth and support that is otherwise typically prerequisite to starting a business in America? The other developers who can build on this scale seem to be completely uninterested.)

And I'll save you the trouble on "most people". I meant "most people on this forum that you're talking to who care about urban issues".

You're only making this easier for me. So, let me get this straight: you really feel comfortable limiting "urban issues" to street design and building aesthetics? City residents who care about things like police brutality, education policy, neighborhood equity, displacement, and so on, (and who--god forbid--don't think to regularly post at the UrbanMSP.com??) -- they don't count? This, to me, is the epitome of the elitist, technocratic echo-chamber mentality that these forums are swamped in.

There's wayyyy more to urban issues than the fact that Karmel Square is inward-facing. Stop howling about it before the real racist types figure out that they can co-opt your argument to use as political cover for their bigotry.

[FISHMANPET]

Wow so what's going on in here guys? Some vague accusation that MNdible is racist?

[MNdible]

"Urban issues" -- good lord, you're really going for the semantics gold here, aren't you? You raise some interesting questions, but you insist on couching them in such over-the-top rhetoric that I'm not going to waste any more of my time responding. Sorry for walking away from a fight on the internet.

[jw138]

Another locally owned bookstore bites the dust. Nicollet Bookstore has closed at 4237 Nicollet Ave:

http://www.southwestjournal.com/news/bi ... wo-decades

I hate to admit that I'm part of the problem by reading electronic books. But in reality, there's unfortunately no stopping this trend...

[LakeCharles]

Another locally owned bookstore bites the dust. Nicollet Bookstore has closed at 4237 Nicollet Ave:

http://www.southwestjournal.com/news/bi ... wo-decades

I hate to admit that I'm part of the problem by reading electronic books. But in reality, there's unfortunately no stopping this trend...

Bummer for them, but that bookstore was terrible. And I am someone who buys about 25 books a year from local bookstores.

[mattaudio]

parking became more difficult in the area

[twincitizen]

translated: Lowbrow and Revival are very successful

Though you would think the bookstore hours mostly do not conflict with the restaurants in the area. I can't imagine the area is parking stressed during bookstore hours... Even so, it is absolutely NOT difficult to park directly on Nicollet within 500' of any of these establishments.

[MNdible]

Confession:

I've lived in this neighborhood for years, and patronize many of the surrounding businesses, and could not have told you that this bookstore existed.

[mattaudio]

Yep. It seems like Odds N Ends had a more positive take:

"Odds N Ends is also a longtime tenant on the block, starting its 20th year in business. The shop has noticed the impact of hour-long wait times at neighboring Revival, according to clerk TJ Guenther."

You mean, people can shop while they're waiting for their table, and they don't need to move their car to do so?