Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Calhoun-Isles, Cedar-Riverside, Longfellow, Nokomis, Phillips, Powderhorn, and Southwest
tedlanda2571
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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby tedlanda2571 » June 15th, 2021, 8:55 am

Heh, so I hadn't been to Uptown in a while either. I was expecting a ghost town as all of you said. Instead I got families, packed beaches, people put walking dogs, kids playing in front yards, so on and so on. Uptown Cleaners building only had one vacant space out of 10. Lake & Irving still holding strong. Even the frame shop was still there.

Lake/Hennepin/Lagoon fails for one really obvious reason. A horribly unpleasant streetscape. Even with the Hennepin reconstruction, Lake is just so damn big to be able to enjoy time there.
I get from reading your posts that you are generally really defensive about any perceived slight to the city, but I'm having a hard time finding the posts where 'all of us said Uptown was a ghost town'. Can you point them out, or was that simply pollyanna-ish hyperbole?

To be honest, the whole snarky you guys are all wrong attitude plays a bit like an attempt to kill debate.

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby uptownbro » June 15th, 2021, 10:11 am

Come see our brand new no go zone.

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby VacantLuxuries » June 15th, 2021, 10:30 am

To be honest, the whole snarky you guys are all wrong attitude plays a bit like an attempt to kill debate.
To be honest, constantly having to debate about things that are subjective is a drag. Plenty of people live here and don't agree with you. Others do, some even live in the city, but far more of those who agree with you are either visitors whose comfort levels are different and people with a political ax to grind, who have jumped seamlessly from declaring Cedar-Riverside or North as unlivable no-go zones to now using Uptown as a rallying cry to continue militarizing police and prioritizing order for visitors over the safety of residents.

It's funny, the punks and artists decried the death of uptown for years because there's no longer Cheapos or certain venues/bars, and now the yuppies are going to go through the same thing because they have to go to Roseville to get a Columbia jacket now. The neighborhood will be fine, it just happens to be going through this transformational process after a once in a lifetime pandemic, a period of extended unrest nationwide, and a period in which the MPD is having a performative tantrum over being asked to do their jobs better.

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby uptownbro » June 15th, 2021, 10:35 am

I mean that people I personally know cant leave there homes due to people having blockaded the streets. Not in the fox news river side way which was used to stir anti immigrant views. I will not sure that if it carries to much stigma based on how some people have used it in the past as a blanket statement.

tedlanda2571
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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby tedlanda2571 » June 15th, 2021, 11:25 am

To be honest, the whole snarky you guys are all wrong attitude plays a bit like an attempt to kill debate.
To be honest, constantly having to debate about things that are subjective is a drag. Plenty of people live here and don't agree with you. Others do, some even live in the city, but far more of those who agree with you are either visitors whose comfort levels are different and people with a political ax to grind, who have jumped seamlessly from declaring Cedar-Riverside or North as unlivable no-go zones to now using Uptown as a rallying cry to continue militarizing police and prioritizing order for visitors over the safety of residents.
Isn't debating things that are subjective the entire point of this board? If I am incorrect and the purpose is simply to convey facts without opinions, than I apologize.

But, then you characterize "more of those who agree with <me>"? Seriously?

Agree with me about what? Please show me where I have advocated for any of those things you list. Like honestly, can you quote something I've said that refers to Cedar Riverside as a no-go zone? Or that I prioritize visitors over residents? I think the only thing that could <possibly> be construed that way was a guest of mine said that Hennepin at Uptown looked like crap compared to Downtown Anoka. Being a resident of the area, I happen to agree with that statement right now. But then you jump to police militarization? I mean, give me just a small break.

What actually makes me FAR more worried about future urbanism is how defensive and fragile people here (and everywhere) are about any "criticism" of the state of cities right now (cities plural, because yes, it's not just Minneapolis). This hits me as a 'protest too much' thing and that maybe deep down folks actually are more worried that this phase may be longer and deeper than they let on...

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby VacantLuxuries » June 15th, 2021, 12:18 pm

I mean that people I personally know cant leave there homes due to people having blockaded the streets. Not in the fox news river side way which was used to stir anti immigrant views. I will not sure that if it carries to much stigma based on how some people have used it in the past as a blanket statement.
Yeah, might not be the best term to describe the situation given the baggage. Legitimate issue for neighbors, no question.
Last edited by VacantLuxuries on June 15th, 2021, 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby VacantLuxuries » June 15th, 2021, 12:39 pm

Please show me where I have advocated for any of those things you list.
I can see why if you thought I was going to go point by point and try to refute the things you said, you'd be confused that I was bringing up things you didn't mention. But that was not my intention, I'm just voicing my frustration with face value assumption that crime is the problem here. Before the pandemic, the neighborhood was already in transition. Just like the Green Line construction pushed businesses already on the road to failure down that road faster, the pandemic and unrest have accelerated trends that were already in motion, and given the business owners a convenient scapegoat to shut down without losing face.

Uptown has needed to better serve its actual residents for some time. Now, there is ample space for the neighborhood to refocus and for property owners to abandon dreams of signing another luxury tenant and just cashing checks for the next ten years.
What actually makes me FAR more worried about future urbanism is how defensive and fragile people here (and everywhere) are about any "criticism" of the state of cities right now (cities plural, because yes, it's not just Minneapolis).
Calling it fragile is pretty reductive. I come here to talk about construction projects and development news. If I wanted to engage in this sort of discourse day in, day out, the Star Tribune comment section exists.

tedlanda2571
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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby tedlanda2571 » June 15th, 2021, 1:40 pm

Please show me where I have advocated for any of those things you list.
I can see why if you thought I was going to go point by point and try to refute the things you said, you'd be confused that I was bringing up things you didn't mention. But that was not my intention, I'm just voicing my frustration with face value assumption that crime is the problem here.
Well, OK, I'll take you at face value. That said, I don't back down from my feeling that linking 'people that agree with me' and no-go zones, police militarization, etc. is unfounded, offensive, and offered without even a smidge of evidence.
Uptown has needed to better serve its actual residents for some time. Now, there is ample space for the neighborhood to refocus and for property owners to abandon dreams of signing another luxury tenant and just cashing checks for the next ten years.
Umm, I believe that's precisely the point I was making? Allow me to quote myself:
In my personal opinion, the turning point might be when we see a couple distressed commercial sales, or even a commercial foreclosure or two. That would be a big signal that the model that was tried and failed around Hennepin and Lake needs a hard re-boot. Basically, it would be an acknowledgement that the underwriting that went into the buildings the last time they sold is no longer valid.
In case this slid by you, 'abandoning dreams of signing another luxury tenant' is precisely what I was getting at. Unfortunately, properties have changed hands at valuations that require an Apple Store or a Victoria's Secret level rent to pencil out. As I stated, we need a re-set, where it becomes clear that those are pipe-dreams and the buildings change hands at valuations where charging rents affordable to locally oriented businesses can still be profitable to a property owner. As I mentioned: when Seven Points (then Calhoun Square) traded in 2019 it was at $34.5M. In 2007 it traded at $47.3M (per Wikipedia). Roughly a 25% loss in value over 12 years! This I view as a positive step.

Taking it further, I also explicitly said that crime isn't the problem. It's a problem that (I hypothesize) hits Hennepin and Lake harder than, say, LynLake for exactly the reasons above. The Uptown area is (was) reliant on a shrinking consumer base that never really made sense (visitors). You top that situation off with a pandemic and the concomitant increase in crime, and I totally believe Juut when they say it's the nail in the coffin. Who is crime going to hurt more (on a relative basis), Chino Latino or Caffrey's? Apple Store or Irina's? Juut or Royal Pet?
Calling it fragile is pretty reductive. I come here to talk about construction projects and development news. If I wanted to engage in this sort of discourse day in, day out, the Star Tribune comment section exists.
I guess my two points would be 1) then don't participate in the particular discourse that bothers you? and 2) expecting only discourse that you come here for is kinda fragile, is it not? (Harrumph! They aren't talking about the things I want!)

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby grant1simons2 » June 15th, 2021, 3:26 pm

Instead I got families, packed beaches, people put walking dogs, kids playing in front yards, so on and so on.
Lol, come on with this.
Come on with what? lol

I was walking down Garfield and 32nd and saw a dad playing lightsabers with his kids. Then a few people biked by with towels drying behind their bikes, and then a couple carrying a kayak. Lots of big shade trees and people walking dogs. I really missed this part of the city honestly.

I'm painting a really nice picture, but I will be forward and say that this is a place facing a lot of grief. Especially with the death of Winston followed by the avoidable death of Deona just yesterday. It's not up to anyone here for how much time it takes for folks to recover/heal from that, if they ever do. It's not a no go zone just as much as Cedar Riverside isn't one either, but I'm sure if some of you lived in Montana, you'd believe that too.

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby grant1simons2 » June 15th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Heh, so I hadn't been to Uptown in a while either. I was expecting a ghost town as all of you said. Instead I got families, packed beaches, people put walking dogs, kids playing in front yards, so on and so on. Uptown Cleaners building only had one vacant space out of 10. Lake & Irving still holding strong. Even the frame shop was still there.

Lake/Hennepin/Lagoon fails for one really obvious reason. A horribly unpleasant streetscape. Even with the Hennepin reconstruction, Lake is just so damn big to be able to enjoy time there.
I get from reading your posts that you are generally really defensive about any perceived slight to the city, but I'm having a hard time finding the posts where 'all of us said Uptown was a ghost town'. Can you point them out, or was that simply pollyanna-ish hyperbole?

To be honest, the whole snarky you guys are all wrong attitude plays a bit like an attempt to kill debate.
How in the hell was this snarky?

Also laughing at "I get from reading your posts..."

It ain't that deep bud. I just throw out comments on the internet.

tedlanda2571
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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby tedlanda2571 » June 15th, 2021, 4:12 pm


It ain't that deep bud. I just throw out comments on the internet.
Well there's something I think we can agree on!

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby grant1simons2 » June 15th, 2021, 4:21 pm

Ya sorry I disagreed with you calling me out personally and being a jerk

uptownbro
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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby uptownbro » June 15th, 2021, 5:11 pm

I already admitted that was the wrong term to use. Occupation of a city street is a more appropriate term to describe what is going on. And that is causing alot of pain to the area, its residents and its businesses.
That being said your description of uptown is very true outside of the one block above. The lakes area this weekend when I went was full of people trying to beat the heat. Many people also were enjoying meals and drinks around the area. Honestly it was very nice to see. While not normal it was alot closer then it has been in a long time. As bad as things are on the Hennepin side I do think when rent prices come down enough you will see a flood of new retail. Basic supply and demand

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby amiller92 » June 15th, 2021, 8:02 pm

Come see our brand new no go zone.
Weird, I keep trying to and not finding anything. Maybe it's 'cause my time to be able to get there is mornings and weekends?

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby amiller92 » June 15th, 2021, 8:09 pm

Unfortunately, properties have changed hands at valuations that require an Apple Store or a Victoria's Secret level rent to pencil out.
Except Victoria's Secret isn't a high-value renter anymore, which is why it is gone. Which isn't to say that you're wrong, just that the things evolve.
Taking it further, I also explicitly said that crime isn't the problem. It's a problem that (I hypothesize) hits Hennepin and Lake harder than, say, LynLake for exactly the reasons above.
I do not understand the implied assertion that there is more crime in Uptown than LynLake. Or you just mean LynLake patrons aren't so scared of the city? That seems like an easy thing for Uptown to fix.
I totally believe Juut when they say it's the nail in the coffin
LOL

tedlanda2571
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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby tedlanda2571 » June 15th, 2021, 9:20 pm


Except Victoria's Secret isn't a high-value renter anymore, which is why it is gone. Which isn't to say that you're wrong, just that the things evolve.
But has that building changed hands? I'd be willing to bet that however many years ago the owner underwrote the building with a Victoria's Secret type tenant in mind and has been hoping against hope that they can get another one as it's the only way the price they paid makes sense. Their only other option is to sell at a big loss, or send the keys back to the bank (either of which is exactly what I think we will see happen more, and will be a long run positive thing).
I do not understand the implied assertion that there is more crime in Uptown than LynLake. Or you just mean LynLake patrons aren't so scared of the city? That seems like an easy thing for Uptown to fix.
I mean neither of those things, nor did I say them or mean to imply them. I mean that the whole premise of Hennepin and Lake was built on a BS business plan, one that is <more> sensitive to retail decline, <more> sensitive to the impacts of a pandemic, and, yes, <more> sensitive to increased crime than is the commercial presence at LynLake.

Irina's is a tailor shop. Caffrey's is a sandwich shop. Royal Pet is a pet groomer. I'll bet that 90% of the business that each of those establishments generates comes from less than a mile away. Even if the area gets 'sketchier', it probably has very little impact on their business. At least as long as it doesn't get so bad that they themselves feel at risk...

Chino Latino or Juut (or Apple Store, or MAC)? Yeah, I think that both pandemic and increased crime could definitely affect those businesses more. Was it more pandemic or more crime? Certainly the pandemic for Chino, but a salon? For the most part salons have gotten through the pandemic OK (and even better recently according to my sister in law). Why is it unreasonable to think that a bunch of ladies that have probably gone to the same stylist for years (and since moved out to the burbs) might read the headlines and say, "nah, at this point I'll just go somewhere closer/safer." It doesn't have to be all or even most of those folks. It just has to be <enough> of them.
I totally believe Juut when they say it's the nail in the coffin
LOL
I dunno, LOL back at you? The stock response of many on this board seems to be that the business excuse of crime is always and everywhere covering up for a mismanaged business. Newsflash: there's <always> some break point above which a business makes sense, and below which it does not. And many businesses don't operate a long way above that point. As such, I completely don't understand the notion that it's inconceivable that an increase in crime (real or perceived) might cause, oh I don't know, a 10-20% reduction in business that causes a modestly successful enterprise to no longer make sense. And again, especially in an area like Hennepin and Lake that was built on the faulty notion of destination retail.

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby Didier » June 15th, 2021, 9:55 pm

But has that building changed hands? I'd be willing to bet that however many years ago the owner underwrote the building with a Victoria's Secret type tenant in mind and has been hoping against hope that they can get another one as it's the only way the price they paid makes sense. Their only other option is to sell at a big loss, or send the keys back to the bank (either of which is exactly what I think we will see happen more, and will be a long run positive thing).
This is the scenario I wonder about. There's a narrative here that Uptown is just going to adapt from "destination" retail to "local" retail, but there's a ton of retail space in Uptown, much of it designed for higher-end stores or restaurants. Is there any precedent for a retail district transforming in this way?

IMO the more likely scenario is that the cycle begins anew, with Calhoun Square trying to attract new "destinations" while the Uptown landlords wait until things stabilize some and then go after the 2020s version of Victoria's Secret, Urban Outfitters, etc. Like baseball, you either hit a home run or strike out.

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby Minneboy » June 15th, 2021, 10:33 pm

I hope they bring back the brothels.

tedlanda2571
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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby tedlanda2571 » June 16th, 2021, 2:05 pm

But has that building changed hands? I'd be willing to bet that however many years ago the owner underwrote the building with a Victoria's Secret type tenant in mind and has been hoping against hope that they can get another one as it's the only way the price they paid makes sense. Their only other option is to sell at a big loss, or send the keys back to the bank (either of which is exactly what I think we will see happen more, and will be a long run positive thing).
This is the scenario I wonder about. There's a narrative here that Uptown is just going to adapt from "destination" retail to "local" retail, but there's a ton of retail space in Uptown, much of it designed for higher-end stores or restaurants. Is there any precedent for a retail district transforming in this way?

IMO the more likely scenario is that the cycle begins anew, with Calhoun Square trying to attract new "destinations" while the Uptown landlords wait until things stabilize some and then go after the 2020s version of Victoria's Secret, Urban Outfitters, etc. Like baseball, you either hit a home run or strike out.
Well, you certainly could be right. But I'd again point to Calhoun Square selling in 2019 at a 25% discount to where it sold in 2007. Even with the financial crisis retail real estate prices in general didn't drop 25% over that period - so the performance here is much worse than typical. When you couple that with relatively low interest rates, I gotta think the absolute rent dollars Seven Points needs to support an acceptable return on investment are much lower now, even if they turn around and invest a few million in a facelift...

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Re: Uptown-LynLake-Wedge - News & General Topics

Postby uptownbro » June 16th, 2021, 2:13 pm

Agreed. Assuming Seven point is run competently vs just "area hype" they should be able to have lower rent prices thus attract/keep tenets far better.


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