urbanMSP

Agreed. It does happen where its rent related but with the amount of empty retail on this side of uptown I think its bold to assume it can only be rent related. Given how much better lyndale is doing, I doubt rent is that much cheaper a few blocks down given that both are bustling streets.

What else do you think is different between the two? Seem pretty similar to me, but there's less parking at Lyn/Lake.

On a high level, I think what's considered to be the "cool" area of the city is just changing. The change we're seeing now is Uptown to North Loop. 10 years ago, the North Loop was a fraction of what it is today; Uptown had everything. Retail cycles happen, and Uptown will likely have to change a before returning to what it was.

Yes and a number of the places that closed in Uptown are brands that were "cool" in the '90s. Brand cycles happen.

Also, regarding Juut, didn't a new salon go in on the 3000 block of Henn in the last two years or so?

ETA: Got by most recent haircut (first professionally since the pandemic) at 48th & Chicago instead of downtown. Patterns of consumption for these services are different right now. And Juut recently closed downtown as well.

Re juut leaving...

It seems to me that most of the people living in the uptown area might be going other places. There's a lot more competition now and maybe trendier places. No need for people from the suburbs to come into the city anymore now that they've expanded out there. A sign that denser neighborhoods can support themselves without relying on the burbs.

And from the sounds of the closing letter they're out of step with a lot of people in the community anyways.

Has there been a massive increase in crime during Juut's operating hours according to their customer's Facebook feed? Also, was there a pandemic?

Heh, so I hadn't been to Uptown in a while either. I was expecting a ghost town as all of you said. Instead I got families, packed beaches, people put walking dogs, kids playing in front yards, so on and so on. Uptown Cleaners building only had one vacant space out of 10. Lake & Irving still holding strong. Even the frame shop was still there.

Lake/Hennepin/Lagoon fails for one really obvious reason. A horribly unpleasant streetscape. Even with the Hennepin reconstruction, Lake is just so damn big to be able to enjoy time there.

Yeah, I'm with Grant. The Uptown area wants to feel like a big thriving single retail district, but the truth is that it is cut into about six pieces by some really awful roads and that makes it a miserable experience for casual window shopping. Those three big roads need a massive rethink. Bringing Lagoon and Lake's three car lanes down to one general travel lane, one transit lane, and one bicycle lane would be a huge improvement.

Unfortunately one of the downsides to having a high-end, national-chain-focused retail mix is that they bring a heavy dose of windshield perspective. The story of Uptown in recent years has been a shift away from this "destination retail" model, and there are a lot of people, including landlords, who can't accept that. If you care about the area itself and not any one retailer, there's no reason to worry. Uptown has two key ingredients: people with money and commercial space. It will sort itself out in the medium term.

Instead I got families, packed beaches, people put walking dogs, kids playing in front yards, so on and so on.

Lol, come on with this.

Heh, so I hadn't been to Uptown in a while either. I was expecting a ghost town as all of you said. Instead I got families, packed beaches, people put walking dogs, kids playing in front yards, so on and so on. Uptown Cleaners building only had one vacant space out of 10. Lake & Irving still holding strong. Even the frame shop was still there.

Lake/Hennepin/Lagoon fails for one really obvious reason. A horribly unpleasant streetscape. Even with the Hennepin reconstruction, Lake is just so damn big to be able to enjoy time there.

I get from reading your posts that you are generally really defensive about any perceived slight to the city, but I'm having a hard time finding the posts where 'all of us said Uptown was a ghost town'. Can you point them out, or was that simply pollyanna-ish hyperbole?

To be honest, the whole snarky you guys are all wrong attitude plays a bit like an attempt to kill debate.

Come see our brand new no go zone.

To be honest, the whole snarky you guys are all wrong attitude plays a bit like an attempt to kill debate.

To be honest, constantly having to debate about things that are subjective is a drag. Plenty of people live here and don't agree with you. Others do, some even live in the city, but far more of those who agree with you are either visitors whose comfort levels are different and people with a political ax to grind, who have jumped seamlessly from declaring Cedar-Riverside or North as unlivable no-go zones to now using Uptown as a rallying cry to continue militarizing police and prioritizing order for visitors over the safety of residents.

It's funny, the punks and artists decried the death of uptown for years because there's no longer Cheapos or certain venues/bars, and now the yuppies are going to go through the same thing because they have to go to Roseville to get a Columbia jacket now. The neighborhood will be fine, it just happens to be going through this transformational process after a once in a lifetime pandemic, a period of extended unrest nationwide, and a period in which the MPD is having a performative tantrum over being asked to do their jobs better.

I mean that people I personally know cant leave there homes due to people having blockaded the streets. Not in the fox news river side way which was used to stir anti immigrant views. I will not sure that if it carries to much stigma based on how some people have used it in the past as a blanket statement.

To be honest, the whole snarky you guys are all wrong attitude plays a bit like an attempt to kill debate.

To be honest, constantly having to debate about things that are subjective is a drag. Plenty of people live here and don't agree with you. Others do, some even live in the city, but far more of those who agree with you are either visitors whose comfort levels are different and people with a political ax to grind, who have jumped seamlessly from declaring Cedar-Riverside or North as unlivable no-go zones to now using Uptown as a rallying cry to continue militarizing police and prioritizing order for visitors over the safety of residents.

Isn't debating things that are subjective the entire point of this board? If I am incorrect and the purpose is simply to convey facts without opinions, than I apologize.

But, then you characterize "more of those who agree with <me>"? Seriously?

Agree with me about what? Please show me where I have advocated for any of those things you list. Like honestly, can you quote something I've said that refers to Cedar Riverside as a no-go zone? Or that I prioritize visitors over residents? I think the only thing that could <possibly> be construed that way was a guest of mine said that Hennepin at Uptown looked like crap compared to Downtown Anoka. Being a resident of the area, I happen to agree with that statement right now. But then you jump to police militarization? I mean, give me just a small break.

What actually makes me FAR more worried about future urbanism is how defensive and fragile people here (and everywhere) are about any "criticism" of the state of cities right now (cities plural, because yes, it's not just Minneapolis). This hits me as a 'protest too much' thing and that maybe deep down folks actually are more worried that this phase may be longer and deeper than they let on...

I mean that people I personally know cant leave there homes due to people having blockaded the streets. Not in the fox news river side way which was used to stir anti immigrant views. I will not sure that if it carries to much stigma based on how some people have used it in the past as a blanket statement.

Yeah, might not be the best term to describe the situation given the baggage. Legitimate issue for neighbors, no question.

Please show me where I have advocated for any of those things you list.

I can see why if you thought I was going to go point by point and try to refute the things you said, you'd be confused that I was bringing up things you didn't mention. But that was not my intention, I'm just voicing my frustration with face value assumption that crime is the problem here. Before the pandemic, the neighborhood was already in transition. Just like the Green Line construction pushed businesses already on the road to failure down that road faster, the pandemic and unrest have accelerated trends that were already in motion, and given the business owners a convenient scapegoat to shut down without losing face.

Uptown has needed to better serve its actual residents for some time. Now, there is ample space for the neighborhood to refocus and for property owners to abandon dreams of signing another luxury tenant and just cashing checks for the next ten years.

What actually makes me FAR more worried about future urbanism is how defensive and fragile people here (and everywhere) are about any "criticism" of the state of cities right now (cities plural, because yes, it's not just Minneapolis).

Calling it fragile is pretty reductive. I come here to talk about construction projects and development news. If I wanted to engage in this sort of discourse day in, day out, the Star Tribune comment section exists.

Please show me where I have advocated for any of those things you list.

I can see why if you thought I was going to go point by point and try to refute the things you said, you'd be confused that I was bringing up things you didn't mention. But that was not my intention, I'm just voicing my frustration with face value assumption that crime is the problem here.

Well, OK, I'll take you at face value. That said, I don't back down from my feeling that linking 'people that agree with me' and no-go zones, police militarization, etc. is unfounded, offensive, and offered without even a smidge of evidence.

Uptown has needed to better serve its actual residents for some time. Now, there is ample space for the neighborhood to refocus and for property owners to abandon dreams of signing another luxury tenant and just cashing checks for the next ten years.

Umm, I believe that's precisely the point I was making? Allow me to quote myself:

In my personal opinion, the turning point might be when we see a couple distressed commercial sales, or even a commercial foreclosure or two. That would be a big signal that the model that was tried and failed around Hennepin and Lake needs a hard re-boot. Basically, it would be an acknowledgement that the underwriting that went into the buildings the last time they sold is no longer valid.

In case this slid by you, 'abandoning dreams of signing another luxury tenant' is precisely what I was getting at. Unfortunately, properties have changed hands at valuations that require an Apple Store or a Victoria's Secret level rent to pencil out. As I stated, we need a re-set, where it becomes clear that those are pipe-dreams and the buildings change hands at valuations where charging rents affordable to locally oriented businesses can still be profitable to a property owner. As I mentioned: when Seven Points (then Calhoun Square) traded in 2019 it was at $34.5M. In 2007 it traded at $47.3M (per Wikipedia). Roughly a 25% loss in value over 12 years! This I view as a positive step.

Taking it further, I also explicitly said that crime isn't the problem. It's a problem that (I hypothesize) hits Hennepin and Lake harder than, say, LynLake for exactly the reasons above. The Uptown area is (was) reliant on a shrinking consumer base that never really made sense (visitors). You top that situation off with a pandemic and the concomitant increase in crime, and I totally believe Juut when they say it's the nail in the coffin. Who is crime going to hurt more (on a relative basis), Chino Latino or Caffrey's? Apple Store or Irina's? Juut or Royal Pet?

Calling it fragile is pretty reductive. I come here to talk about construction projects and development news. If I wanted to engage in this sort of discourse day in, day out, the Star Tribune comment section exists.

I guess my two points would be 1) then don't participate in the particular discourse that bothers you? and 2) expecting only discourse that you come here for is kinda fragile, is it not? (Harrumph! They aren't talking about the things I want!)

Instead I got families, packed beaches, people put walking dogs, kids playing in front yards, so on and so on.

Lol, come on with this.

Come on with what? lol

I was walking down Garfield and 32nd and saw a dad playing lightsabers with his kids. Then a few people biked by with towels drying behind their bikes, and then a couple carrying a kayak. Lots of big shade trees and people walking dogs. I really missed this part of the city honestly.

I'm painting a really nice picture, but I will be forward and say that this is a place facing a lot of grief. Especially with the death of Winston followed by the avoidable death of Deona just yesterday. It's not up to anyone here for how much time it takes for folks to recover/heal from that, if they ever do. It's not a no go zone just as much as Cedar Riverside isn't one either, but I'm sure if some of you lived in Montana, you'd believe that too.

Heh, so I hadn't been to Uptown in a while either. I was expecting a ghost town as all of you said. Instead I got families, packed beaches, people put walking dogs, kids playing in front yards, so on and so on. Uptown Cleaners building only had one vacant space out of 10. Lake & Irving still holding strong. Even the frame shop was still there.

Lake/Hennepin/Lagoon fails for one really obvious reason. A horribly unpleasant streetscape. Even with the Hennepin reconstruction, Lake is just so damn big to be able to enjoy time there.

I get from reading your posts that you are generally really defensive about any perceived slight to the city, but I'm having a hard time finding the posts where 'all of us said Uptown was a ghost town'. Can you point them out, or was that simply pollyanna-ish hyperbole?

To be honest, the whole snarky you guys are all wrong attitude plays a bit like an attempt to kill debate.

How in the hell was this snarky?

Also laughing at "I get from reading your posts..."

It ain't that deep bud. I just throw out comments on the internet.

It ain't that deep bud. I just throw out comments on the internet.

Well there's something I think we can agree on!

Ya sorry I disagreed with you calling me out personally and being a jerk

I already admitted that was the wrong term to use. Occupation of a city street is a more appropriate term to describe what is going on. And that is causing alot of pain to the area, its residents and its businesses.
That being said your description of uptown is very true outside of the one block above. The lakes area this weekend when I went was full of people trying to beat the heat. Many people also were enjoying meals and drinks around the area. Honestly it was very nice to see. While not normal it was alot closer then it has been in a long time. As bad as things are on the Hennepin side I do think when rent prices come down enough you will see a flood of new retail. Basic supply and demand