Motiv Apartments - 2320 Colfax Avenue S

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min-chi-cbus
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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 19th, 2014, 9:12 am

Guess my prediction was wrong.... :oops:

I'm okay with preservation IFF somebody actually puts up the bones to preserve this building and care for it like the supposed gem that it is. Until then, I suspect that this building (like many other historic buildings "saved" by preservationists) will rot until it's clear that demolition was always the prevailing best route to take, considering that it's most likely that the building is a money pit for owners. Even if somebody did put together the funds to truly rehab this place, you can say "goodbye" to the affordable aspect of it!

A big "woops" from the decision-makers today, in my humble opinion! I hope I'm wrong (again)!!

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby alleycat » March 19th, 2014, 9:28 am

Come on. Stop overreacting to the HPC doing its job. They are in the business of deciding if a building is a historic resource. They're not supposed to vote for a demo based on what's replacing it. There's a reason the city council can override the HPC. It's a system of checks and balances.

I don't see much to love in this Healy house and I do think the proposal is appropriate, but the urbanists here seem to forget the thousands of units being built throughout the city. We're winning despite a few set backs like here, Dinkytown and maybe Lyndale-Franklin.
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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby go4guy » March 19th, 2014, 10:48 am

Is it possible for the owner to donate the house to have moved to a different location either in the area, or in North Minneapolis? Then it would not be demolished. And we can still get the type of development this location deserves.

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby twincitizen » March 19th, 2014, 11:04 am

If moving buildings was either structurally or financially feasible (without public dollars), I think we'd see it happening quite a bit more often.

The distance to be moved cannot be that great, and you really need to consider obstructions like trees, power lines, etc. This house is not going to north Minneapolis. If it were going anywhere, it would be elsewhere in the Wedge or Whittier, in very close proximity.

This is a larger house too and it's 120 years old. It simply may not be structurally possibly to relocate it in one piece. It's nearly as wide as 24th Street. There would have to be a vacant lot really nearby for it to be possible. Even then, I suspect there would have to be significant tree cleanup or outright removal to make it possible.

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby alleycat » March 19th, 2014, 11:51 am

I'm not sure about moving it to North. Knowing how often worthy rehabs go down over here you might be putting it at greater risk. :lol: In all seriousness Old Highland would be a great location if money wasn't a concern.

Demolitions cost upward of $20K for modest homes in North. I'm sure it's more for this structure. I don't have any cost on moving. I'd assume you wouldn't want to move it too far in order to keep costs down. If urbanists started pushing for that you might be able to get in good grace with your sworn enemy and get this new building in the ground.
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Nathan
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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby Nathan » March 19th, 2014, 12:00 pm

Franklin and Freemont or Franklin and Emmerson... Or donate it to one of the temples/churches, and they can put it in their lot or something for some community based housing... there could be all sorts of creative uses for it...

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 19th, 2014, 1:37 pm

I have no problem with the hpc denying a demolition, since their concern is only with history. And I understand they have a role in determining what modifications can be made to historic resources. But if the hpc serves merely as a rubber stamp for preservation and a speed bump on the way to z&p and the full Council, are they really doing any good for us? I recognize the need for a group dedicated solely to preserving our history, but they have to actually work towards that goal. If every building that comes before them is historic, and every change to a historic building is denied, are they really doing us any good?

The staff report recommends this for demolition, because according to staff it's not even a historic resource. I've read the report and it looks pretty thoroughly at all the criteria and how this building doesn't meet them. I've seen no good rebuttal of that report from opponents of demolition. In fact that report rebuts claims I've heard opponents make (that this particular house is a turning point in Healy's) work. So what rational basis is there for deeming this historic in the first place?

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby twincitizen » March 19th, 2014, 1:45 pm

That's a great take on the role of the HPC, and I think that needs to be brought up at Z&P.

Zoning & Planning Committee meeting will be Thursday, April 3 at 9:30 AM.

I cannot attend. I hope some of you can show up and speak. This is going to take everything we've got.

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby alleycat » March 20th, 2014, 11:39 pm

Here's what my friend, Brian Finstad, had to say about this development. He said I could post this here. I think it will be enlightening to see what the other side is fighting for. I didn't know much of this before.
I don't feel we're really apart. I think they have some false narratives they believe and think every preservationist they meet is one of the folks they are battling in Dinkytown. No one involved with the Orth House is one of those people. They are the old school urbanists who fought to save old buildings when the arguments were "there's not enough parking" or "there's not enough 'set back.'" In other words, the folks who were talking density before density was cool.

They have no recognition or appreciation for those who were fighting the battles for decades before they arrived on the scene. You have a legend like Bob Roscoe who is responsible for saving Milwaukee Avenue against such arguments. Everyone in the room understands the weight and force of history and knowledge behind this man. And then some millennial with no understanding of who he is gets up and says he doesn't believe "these people" really care about preservation but are just using it to "oppose development."

They are believing a false narrative that "these people" want low density and a large archaic houses that no longer makes sense for modern lifestyle or energy efficiency to be "preserved" in some museum like state. And that's not the case at all. I'd like to see the house adaptively reused into a high density development that provides affordable housing in an area that is quickly becoming unaffordable and gentrifying.

The fact that this route might cost more means it might not be attractive for the "for profits" like Landers. It creates an opportunity for a non-profit entity that can work with subsidy to move in and get some dense affordable housing units into the area while that is still possible.

They are supporting a plan that destroys cultural heritage of the city for the purpose of a developer who has moved to England; who wants to reap the largest profit from an area, displacing low income individuals and creating apartments only affordable to those with means. They understand little of the facts of the situation, nuance, or the reputations of those they are opposing. They simply hear the words "density" "preservationists" and "oppose development" and jump to assumptions and preconceived narratives they believe to be true.
Here's an image he wanted me to include as an example. This is the Alliance Apartments expansion along I-94 in Elliot Park.

http://www.cermakrhoades.com/alliance.html

Image
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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby ECtransplant » March 21st, 2014, 3:08 am

They are the old school urbanists who fought to save old buildings when the arguments were "there's not enough parking" or "there's not enough 'set back.'" In other words, the folks who were talking density before density was cool.
I'm not sure who your friend Brian speaks for, and he seems like a nice enough guy, but aren't many of the same people against this development the ones fighting for large setbacks at Franklin and Lyndale?

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Nick
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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby Nick » March 21st, 2014, 6:25 am

As the Some Millennial With No Understanding of Who He Is mentioned above, I'll say that saying "these people" while looking to my left was probably a poor choice of words in my generally nervous testimony, but I'll stand by my point.
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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby John » March 21st, 2014, 6:49 am

I've never figured out why the people who oppose this development offers no real viable solution to this issue other than crying fowl at the loss of these properties with their dubious historical value. They are just hot air with no substance. The Alliance project is a great idea to emulate aesthetically, but offers no concrete solution for this specific property. Where's their plan to preserve them and/and or sell them so the owner gets a fair market price?

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby Anondson » March 21st, 2014, 6:58 am

"Some non-profit" will come along (with a subsidy) and make his wishes come true. Someday. Just wait. Hasn't happened in all this time, but it will.

Seems some of his hopes is outside the responsibility of historical preservation.

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby garfield » March 21st, 2014, 7:42 am

It would be interesting to see what the "preservationist" reaction would be if a group like the Clare House (residences for HIV positive individuals) or YouthLink (for homeless teens) offered to purchase the properties and use them without demolition. There is obviously nothing wrong with either of those organizations, but there is a stigma attached and I am guessing the "preservationists" that live nearby would fight just as hard to keep them from using these "historic" properties, even if they were to be left standing.

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby mplser » March 21st, 2014, 9:23 am

I'm very familiar with the example shown above, it is about a block away from my condo. He is comparing apples and oranges. In the case of the house on 94, there was a large open space next to the house to build on. The house at 24th and Colfax is awkwardly plopped in the middle of the lot, making it very difficult to build anything next to it, especially on the 24th st side.
Last edited by mplser on March 21st, 2014, 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 21st, 2014, 9:49 am

If someone wants to come forward with a plan to purchase this house and not demolish it, nobody is opposed to that. But nobody has come forward. Yes, there are a million things that could be done with the house, but there's exactly one thing that is proposed for the site.

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby alleycat » March 21st, 2014, 10:36 am

If someone wants to come forward with a plan to purchase this house and not demolish it, nobody is opposed to that. But nobody has come forward.
We had a plan to move. We had a developer, a lot, neighborhood support for where it was going, the mover, the route planned - everything. The numbers were such that we needed a contribution from Lander. Nothing. It was his choice to pursue ramming this through. He could have worked with us and had this underway a year ago. It is a myth that the preservationists did not come up with a plan.
I'd guess that you guys are conflating different groups who are against development with straight up preservationists. There are people who hate density and new development, but I think these are definitely people you can work with. I wasn't at the meeting. I have very little opinion on this fight. I don't know if NIMBYs were commingling with the preservation crowd. We all say things out of passion at meetings. All I'm trying to do is bridge the gap. See if these two sides can work together. Brian is very representative of preservationists in Minneapolis. I've known him and the circle of people who push preservation. They want to see a healthy, thriving, bustling and, yes, dense future. These are people you can work with if you give it a chance.
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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby Anondson » March 21st, 2014, 10:39 am

Would it be difficult for him to make his offer and proposal public for everyone to see his cards on the table?

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby FISHMANPET » March 21st, 2014, 10:48 am

Yeah, I don't think it's arguing in good faith to say "We had a plan all along, but it's a secret!"

There was even a legal period of 180 days where an alternative plan was allowed to be brought forward to prevent the demolition, and this is the first I'm hearing of any plan. Everything Brian's saying may be true, but keeping it secret doesn't help anyone.

Although, all that being said, there's still no disagreement with this building not being an historic resource, so now we're back to preserving it for no other reason than it's old, and I can't really get on board with that.

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Re: 2316-2320 Colfax Apartments

Postby woofner » March 21st, 2014, 10:55 am

You may want to pass on to Brian how insulting and unpersuasive it is to predicate his argument on the assumption that he are correct because he's lived here longer. I've talked to people who've lived here for decades and have been fighting crackheads at least as long as Bob Roscoe and Trilby Busch who have expressed support for demo at 2320 Colfax. I don't want to be drawn into a cock measuring session but I can now claim to have lived here for decades myself, and the frequency of resting arguments on one's own longevity is one of the things that have always turned me off from community participation. I appreciate the work and advocacy that Brian and Bob Roscoe have done and are doing, but that doesn't mean I need to agree with them on every issue.

To the extent that his message has a relevant argument, I'd counter that there is a spectrum of preservationists. Some are only willing to fight for properties where important historical events took place, some also value physical expressions of historical eras, some want every structure preserved but are flexible about the use, some want every structure preserved and used for its original purpose. It sounds like Brian is in the 3rd category, but from what I've read it seems like the last category (lets call it the Nicole Curtises) is most prevalent among the vocal opponents of demolition at 2320 anyway. Personally I consider myself a preservationist but would be more towards the 2nd category. Since this structure has nothing noteworthy about it, has been extensively altered, and its surroundings aren't even integrally evocative of the era of suburbanization in which they were developed, I don't see any reason to preserve it.
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