New Senate office building (St. Paul Capitol Hill)

[twincitizen]

Updates: http://finance-commerce.com/2014/01/sta ... e-forward/

[RailBaronYarr]

http://www.twincities.com/ci_24864792

So, help me understand this.. Total project cost for Senate Office "Building" is $90m. Am I correct in saying $27m is just for the separate, 3-story 210 space public parking ramp (to be used mostly by staffers in the building)? The article also notes a 2-level parking ramp under the building with 265 spaces (which I assume is part of the $63m building cost).

Is it me or is the $128,500 per space for an above-ground parking structure a bit above average (I've seen $20-30k per space depending on footprint, height, etc). Is it safe to say that close to half of the project's costs are in parking when the underground ramp is included?

[bubzki2]

Seems a tad excessive considering this is literally right next to the Central Corridor, doesn't it?

[HiawathaGuy]

Letter to the editor about this in today's Star Tribune:

http://www.startribune.com/opinion/lett ... 42521.html
If space is needed, it could be rented nearby for a sliver of the cost of a new building.

[woofner]

My understanding is that specifically there was a shortage of large hearing rooms. I could be wrong, but I'd think that the dimensional requirements of such spaces would make it difficult to convert typical office spaces into it.

Also, as RailBaronYarr points out, the secret reason for this building is more parking pork to coddle auto-addicted legislators (like, no doubt, Tom Bakk).

[talindsay]

My understanding is that specifically there was a shortage of large hearing rooms. I could be wrong, but I'd think that the dimensional requirements of such spaces would make it difficult to convert typical office spaces into it.

Also, as RailBaronYarr points out, the secret reason for this building is more parking pork to coddle auto-addicted legislators (like, no doubt, Tom Bakk).

Snark, I hope? It seems like a lot of spaces and the price by RB's math seems high, but I think the plan here is to get rid of a lot of the surface parking around the Capitol grounds and restore green space.

[RailBaronYarr]

I also question how high the math is... but would be on the very low side per space if it were only $12,850 per space ($2.7mil total off by a decimal point). Personally, I question the need to add green space back in to the area.. there's about 17 acres of it directly south of the Capitol building plus some additional to the east and west of it - most of which I've never seen completely full (and only marginally so during major protests. The proximity to the LRT stop make this whole area a prime location for both residential and office space moving forward rather than publicly subsidized garages (when there are so many lots nearby and under-priced street spots).

To compare to another Capitol building/grounds.. as much as I hate to admit it, those damn Sconnies have a much better site location, integration to surrounding street network/buildings, etc than St Paul. There are roughly 5,000 city/county operated public ramp/lot spaces within walking distance, and the entire Capitol square is just 11.8 acres large. Seems to work fine for a state with roughly equivalent population to MN, a city of 240k, and site of a major state university.

(side note, their Assembly (House)/Senate have 122 members to MN's 201 total legislators, interesting.)

[MNdible]

Madison is an impossible comparison, since they had the good fortune to build their capital on a hill in the middle of an isthmus, which radically limits the ability to expand and therefore makes land near the capital very precious.

[VAStationDude]

As someone who worked in the area, I'll offer my perspective. Over the last ten years there has been a big increase in the number of employees working in the Capitol complex. The Stassen building at 600 Robert has gone from less than 500 employees ten years ago to at least 1200 today. The Freeman and Ag/Health Lab buildings across Robert opened about eight years ago. The proposed Sears development will remove a few hundred parking spots. Obviously, under those conditions, demand for remaining parking will increase. On top of that the whole culture of the area is very auto-focused, ramp rates are very low ($51.67 a month) and public transportation is pretty lousy. I don't know what can be done to address the transportation needs of the area. The Green Line might help a little but the housing adjacent to the Green Line is probably not all that appealing to upper middle income accountants, scientists, lawyers and IT Professionals who work in the Capitol Complex. Even in this shitty job market, the state has a difficult time retaining employees. So the big wigs would probably balk at increased parking rates (plus those big wigs don't want to pay more). Obviously, the proposed ramp and office building is a boondoggle but there will be parking built in the complex.

To go along with what MNDible said about the Capitol in Madison - land around the Minnesota State Capitol has got to be pretty cheap which is another reason to question the price tag of this office building.

[talindsay]

Madison is an impossible comparison, since they had the good fortune to build their capital on a hill in the middle of an isthmus, which radically limits the ability to expand and therefore makes land near the capital very precious.

Indeed, Madison is exceptional, but that's because it's an exception - the natural landscape encourages the built form that emerged very early on and really can't be changed. Our Capitol building is on the other end of a ten-mile Avenue from the big business district and geographically quite a ways from the secondary business district. It would be great to see DT Saint Paul grow to include the Capitol, but I don't think Madison can be the model for that. Perhaps Des Moines is a more realistic model.

[RailBaronYarr]

My point in a Madison comparison was to question the need for more green space. What does more (when the amount we have is already larger than the entire Madison Capitol site) accomplish? What does the amount we have today accomplish?

St Paul used to encapsulate the Capitol much better than it did today, with a built form not that different than Madison at the same time. I struggle with the notion that land adjacent to a LRT stop, state Capitol, and 2/3 of a mile from a CBD being cheap, but I suppose those 2 freeways + interchanges certainly don't help. I think America as a society proved that proximity to natural resources and constrained land didn't stop us from placing freeways and parking in highly valuable areas (Manhattan, San Francisco, Boston, etc all did), so I think this is just an example of Madison/WI making better choices than we did regarding what we did with the built form that was around our Capitol.

Not saying parking shouldn't be part of the complex, just pointing out the relative cost it adds. Obviously the #1 alternative is to use vacant office space in St Paul.

As a side note, if the state is so worried about losing their middle-income employees faced with doubling their parking costs or choosing an alternate mode to get to work, I would imagine there are a slew of recent, under-employed college grads willing to do the work, live in urban environments, and take transit to work.

[woofner]

I think the plan here is to get rid of a lot of the surface parking around the Capitol grounds and restore green space.

I hope that's the plan. Have you ever seen it explicitly stated? I can just as easily see scenarios where the state keeps building big parking ramps or hangs on to their other lots.

Regarding Madison, the state did ram a highway through the isthmus on the Monona side. I imagine if the city were any bigger or Washington Ave any narrower they would have gone full-bore freeway.

[David Greene]

The Green Line might help a little but the housing adjacent to the Green Line is probably not all that appealing to upper middle income accountants, scientists, lawyers and IT Professionals

I dunno, Prospect Park is pretty attractive to this well-to-do IT guy, As is the North Loop, downtown Minneapolis in general, the West Bank, Marcy-Holmes, Midway, Frogtown...really just about anywhere near University Ave. Not all of these places is as wealthy as the others but I have no doubt whatsoever that we're going to see an influx of people in every neighborhood along the line. Some of those houses north of University Ave. have damn attractive character.

[uptowncarag]

Madison is not exceptional. If you are talking about Madison Minnesota then I would agree with you.

[at40man]

Instead of yet another subsidy to build a palace for the elite on the paid for by us commonfolk, why not put these politicians in the Macy's building and kill two birds with one stone?

[David Greene]

Instead of yet another subsidy to build a palace for the elite on the paid for by us commonfolk, why not put these politicians in the Macy's building and kill two birds with one stone?

Because Macy's is *way* too far from the capitol. I don't think we need this building but legislators go back and forth from their offices to chambers and committee meetings a LOT. They need close proximity to all the meeting spaces.

I really wonder what is driving this. Are legislators getting many more staffers? I agree that the capitol complex needs more larger hearing rooms. Even the largest rooms overflow for major hearings. I don't understand why we need more office space. Over the years offices have taken over bits of public balcony space, required new buildings (SOB) and generally pushed out the public in favor of staffers and...?

I'm no Tea Partier but why has the need for office space increased so much? The size of the legislature has barely increased (4 seats) since 1915.

I would be open to shrinking the size of the legislature a bit but would wholly oppose a unicameral body. There's too much chance for one-party rule in that setup.

[mattaudio]

But the capitol is now only two short stops away from the CBD via the LRT.

[Tom H.]

Good luck convincing Senator Sven from Lake Woebegon to take the Green Line to the capitol.

[fehler]

If his session rental is in the Mill District, he might.

[FISHMANPET]

Honestly, for something where you might need to be going back and forth a few times a day, having to take a train, even if it's fairly direct, is pretty inconvenient.