Ford Plant Redevelopment [archive - locked]

[mulad]

For me, the biggest knock against a simple street grid for me is that it's a bit boring. However, it's the simplest way to get a good block size and have straightforward navigation through an area. Since buildings are generally rectangular, a street grid is also much more likely to encourage the most efficient use of land. I wouldn't say that every street needs to be perfectly straight, but I'd like to see the curving streets be a relatively small minority.

There's a case to be made for trying block sizes that have a different width and length compared to the surrounding neighborhood. Personally, I find the standard St. Paul block size to be just a bit too big, so I'd like them a bit smaller, perhaps closer to the scale in the Merriam Park area (though some of those are probably too small to be economically attractive -- then again, that area commands some pretty high property values). It might be better to go with lot sizes like 40' x 80', which would reduce block depth (shallower front setbacks would be needed, though). I'd probably prefer reducing the length of blocks so they're closer to 440' rather than 660' too.

Like in Merriam Park, the sizes of the blocks could vary somewhat, which might make the area a bit more interesting even if the streets are straight.

I just want to avoid turning the whole area into a big pod that only has a couple ways in or out, and I'd like at least one new east-west street south of Ford Parkway to reduce the heavy car traffic at the Ford and Cleveland intersection -- that's a significant commercial node which should be more pedestrian-focused. Curving streets are the standard for new development everywhere these days, but since developers tend to just focus on their own area of land and don't take a holistic view of the region they're in, their plans often lead to big mistakes that wall neighborhoods off from each other, concentrate traffic onto a few major through streets, and make it virtually impossible to route public transit through the areas in an efficient manner.

Basically, I say the grid should be the standard. I'm willing to accept another layout, but it has to be shown that it still has small blocks, good walkability with fairly simple and direct routings from point to point, and doesn't waste land that could be put to productive use.

[mulad]

Architects at Perkins+Will have been running an internal competition for ideas for the Ford plant site, and have 75 entries. A winner is supposed to be selected today:

http://www.startribune.com/firm-asks-ar ... 394216121/

The designs are available here:

http://dlc.perkinswill.com/

[amiller92]

Perhaps I just don't understand them, but all of the shortlist look terrible.

[seanrichardryan]

They are all terrible.

[Nathan]

I really like a lot of them, did y'all download the plans or just look at brief descriptions?

[beige_box]

Wow there are so many this is so fun

[matthew5080]

Talent Factory and Forward Banks really caught my attention... They're all fun to look at though, some very creative ideas!

[Silophant]

The Urban Roots proposal with the extensive reuse of the tunnels/mines is pretty cool. Hopefully something happens with them, and they're not just sealed off. (Though probably not an LRT line that runs along East River Road).

[kellonathan]

I know these are submitted by architects, and I know I am just 'reviewing' these ideas with my planner-eyes, but, but, but, these are all horrible if one of these gets to be implemented as-is.

Most submissions didn't seem to consider the nature of surrounding neighborhoods at all. For industrially oriented submissions, freight circulation plans seem too high-level. And why did all these plans cut the potential LRT at the end of the site instead of running it through all the way to Ford Rd?

[Nathan]

Probably because they're completely conceptual and the teams haven't been here or talked extensively to local figures...

Of course original concepts are never perfect.

[talindsay]

They're terrible. But I hope "Mini-Polis" gets built because that would just irk Saint Paulies.

[RailBaronYarr]

Here is the presentation given last night on the site's zoning & public realm. https://www.stpaul.gov/sites/default/fi ... _FINAL.pdf There's a lot to discuss, obviously. Overall, not too shabby.

Some media coverage:
http://www.twincities.com/2016/11/14/fo ... nneapolis/
http://www.startribune.com/community-ge ... 401200985/

[acs]

I guess this just makes it official then, Highland park is no longer middle class and never will be again. Sad to see really.

[RailBaronYarr]

I'm confused by that statement - this plan has everything to do with built form and public space layout. While I'm nearly positive it won't be the case, there's nothing in that document saying all 4,000 projected residential units can't be subsidized housing. But, adding 2-,3-, 4,000, or whatever number of units to HP - which is already pricey and moving more that way - won't hurt the situation.

But! The city should use as much leverage as possible to encourage or require affordable housing. St Paul should even consider scaling back on the public expenses (>50% of the site is roads or stormwater treatment or parks/fields!!) and using some of the 1) reduction in long-term public costs and 2) slightly larger tax-base of the redevelopment to all help locally fund affordable housing. The city is strongly considering TIF for the site to help pay for all the infrastructure required. The less infrastructure and the higher percentage of property taxes going to the city's general fund rather than a TIF fund means they have a greater ability to give some subsidies.

[EOst]

Median home price in Highland last month: $301k.

Monthly payment on a $301k 30-year loan w/ 20% down: ~$14-1500

Yearly income required for that payment to be "affordable": 60-65k, depending on other expenses

https://www.mprnews.org/story/2015/12/0 ... ddle-class

For a household with three people, being middle class means making between about $42,000 and $126,000.

[guy thinking emoji]

[mattaudio]

Yearly income required for that payment to be "affordable": 60-65k, depending on other expenses

Isn't that right about the metro median household income? So, how exactly is Highland Park not middle class?

[twincitizen]

Here is the presentation given last night on the site's zoning & public realm. https://www.stpaul.gov/sites/default/fi ... _FINAL.pdf There's a lot to discuss, obviously. Overall, not too shabby.

Some media coverage:
http://www.twincities.com/2016/11/14/fo ... nneapolis/
http://www.startribune.com/community-ge ... 401200985/

F&C Article appears to be unlocked: http://finance-commerce.com/2016/11/st- ... ford-site/

[John21]

Competing visions for vacant Ford-plant site set the stage for a lengthy battle

Hoppe and a coalition of a dozen like-minded neighbors worry that the city’s plans to partner with an as-yet unknown developer and create a “sustainable” urban village will overwhelm their street with traffic, while blocking views of the Mississippi River. Even without development there, they say, there’s already too many traffic concerns in the area.

[Silophant]

I would tend to agree that there are too many concerns about traffic in the area.

[UrsusUrbanicus]

Hoppe and a coalition of a dozen like-minded neighbors worry that the city’s plans to partner with an as-yet unknown developer and create a “sustainable” urban village will overwhelm their street with traffic, while blocking views of the Mississippi River. Even without development there, they say, there’s already too many traffic concerns in the area.

They live in a city. If they want absolute peace and quiet, it's not as though we haven't spent the last 70 years building happy little utopias engineered precisely to their sensitivities (both ambiental and demographic). Move to Mendota Heights or get over it.