Bloomington - General Topics

Twin Cities Suburbs
Apollo
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Apollo » September 8th, 2021, 10:23 am

I guess I am excited to have a Hyvee on a rapid transit line(Orange), cause all the others are impossible to get to without a car.
Aren't you forgetting about the Mississippi Market that's literally a block from the Orange Line as well in the same area? Wish this area had more residential apartments than another grocery store. We have enough grocery store in the area, there's the Target, Mississippi Market, Aldi, and Cubs, now Hyvee? We don't need more. The newly built apartment building (Opened last year) in this same area are beautiful and I wish more were built than more commercial space.

Bakken2016
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Bakken2016 » September 8th, 2021, 6:11 pm

I guess I am excited to have a Hyvee on a rapid transit line(Orange), cause all the others are impossible to get to without a car.
Aren't you forgetting about the Mississippi Market that's literally a block from the Orange Line as well in the same area? Wish this area had more residential apartments than another grocery store. We have enough grocery store in the area, there's the Target, Mississippi Market, Aldi, and Cubs, now Hyvee? We don't need more. The newly built apartment building (Opened last year) in this same area are beautiful and I wish more were built than more commercial space.
Would you want to live at the intersection of two major interstates? I wouldn't.

Mdcastle
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Mdcastle » September 8th, 2021, 6:36 pm

I strongly disagree with the premise that Bloomington doesn't need more grocery stores. There's Aldi and Cub, where you have to bag your own groceries, and Cub isn't even particularly cheap or good. And while Cub has a decent selection, Aldi certainly does not. There's the astronomically priced places like Fresh Thyme, Festival, and Lunds. There's Target where they're convinced the problem with their grocery selection is not having fancy enough shelves as opposed to keeping non-store brand, non organic staples in stock (I tried to shop at Target twice and once they were out of regular butter, once out of Corn Flakes). There's Walmart, where having a police desk at the front entrance should tell you all you need to know. I've not heard of this Mississippi Market, but it sounds really limited and expensive.

Other than Bloomington needing a Hy-Vee, I have no strong feelings about this proposal. Maybe it's not cute enough for some, but stores empty for 5 years aren't attractive either. Maybe they can put apartments on top of Hy-Vee?

Apollo
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Apollo » September 8th, 2021, 10:45 pm

I strongly disagree with the premise that Bloomington doesn't need more grocery stores. There's Aldi and Cub, where you have to bag your own groceries, and Cub isn't even particularly cheap or good. And while Cub has a decent selection, Aldi certainly does not. There's the astronomically priced places like Fresh Thyme, Festival, and Lunds. There's Target where they're convinced the problem with their grocery selection is not having fancy enough shelves as opposed to keeping non-store brand, non organic staples in stock (I tried to shop at Target twice and once they were out of regular butter, once out of Corn Flakes). There's Walmart, where having a police desk at the front entrance should tell you all you need to know. I've not heard of this Mississippi Market, but it sounds really limited and expensive.

Other than Bloomington needing a Hy-Vee, I have no strong feelings about this proposal. Maybe it's not cute enough for some, but stores empty for 5 years aren't attractive either. Maybe they can put apartments on top of Hy-Vee?
I apologize, I meant Fresh Thyme nearby. I am used to having a Mississippi Market near my former place in St. Paul before I moved to the area. But Fresh Thyme is what I meant, my mistake.

I do agree with you on Target, they are barely a food store, and even after their renovations, it is still.... awful. I do shop at the Cub, I don't really have any complaint with it, it serves the need and is always busy. Cub and Hy-vee would be similarly priced since they are a similar grocery store no? Aldi is the cheapest one here and Fresh Thyme at the top of the spectrum.

I too have no strong feeling about this proposal, and too would rather see something active than a un-used store. But I think Kraus-Anderson could do better than a grocery store here. EDIT: On a second thought and reflection, Kraus-Anderson could come up with a better master plan for this area, I'm dissapointed it looks like an extension of a strip mall and less on the fact it's an grocery and liquor store. More green space, more height variation of the buildings, less parking lots, a look similar to the existing Fresh Thyme area, would be a much better proposal to me. As you said, I really do wish they added an apartment component on top of the liquor store, that would make all the difference for me, rather than more bland one story retail space. I rather see some height variation here in this area than bland one story strip mall stores. And yes I see the apartment component in the proposal, but theres no guarantee of them actually being built. If the area looked more as what it does near Fresh Thyme, I would be happy with that, it just looks more upscale and livable than a giant parking lot between one story commercial stores, it is no better than what's there now, just configured differently.

The picture of the hy-vee liquor store that the Star-Tribune showed as well, is well... uninspiring as well and has a giant brick wall in it, it just doesn't feel inviting or attractive to me. Again, I really do wish there were apartments on top of these commercial spaces. Another picture in the Buisness Journal, of a different perspective of the strip mall, just looks the same as the existing strip mall. It's very uninspiring and doesn't really make me want to stay in the area too long. Compare that to the area around Mallards and more smaller commercial spaces. The feel here is just strip-mall ish, and I get that it is already an strip mall, but I believed Bloomington in their master planning of the area wanted to move away from that. https://www.bloomingtonmn.gov/sites/def ... 012114.pdf Just look at that first page, that tells you everything. Instead we're getting more strip malls. Replacing a strip mall with another strip mall.


Bakken2016 -

Not if it is essentially a giant parking space, if it looked more like the area near the Fresh Thyme nearby, it would make it more livable. The area just needs to be a bit more urban and have less parking and less space dedicated for cars. Perhaps a park, or more green spaces, but one can dream.

Mdcastle
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Mdcastle » September 9th, 2021, 8:02 am

Image

The cities district plan. Notable that this area was rezoned for the plan, but I think they had a form more like a lifestyle center, maybe with 2nd floor offices, as opposed to apartments with ground floor retail. Possibly the idea is to buffer residential from the freeway.

In private discussions with another poster here, the city could probably kill the proposal if they want since it doesn't meet FAR requirements unless the future phases are counted in. Should be an interesting meeting between the developers, the liberal city government, the people that are clambering to save the bowling ally, and the people that are clambering for a Hy-Vee.

I've heard the suggestion "why doesn't Hy-Vee buy Cub", but that's not going to happen, first and foremost because after delaying the sale due to the pandemic, UNFI is starting to like the idea of keeping their existing retail operations. Also it seems Hy-Vee likes to expand slowly and cautiously, Cub is unionized, and the Cub stores are too small; Hy-Vee likes locations that are 130,000 square feet with gas pumps and a liquor store while Cub stores are more like 80,000 square feet.

Apollo
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Apollo » September 9th, 2021, 9:46 am

Honestly though, I hope the "side" of the "liberal city government" is the one asking for more from this proposal than more one story commercial space and a one story giant grocery store. Again, my problem isn't the type of retail, it is the density and lack of green space in this proposal that appears as if it is just an extension of the existing strip mall, just re-arranged differently. Hopefully the city comes back and requires apartments on top of the one story strip mall (the part with the liquor store) and I would be 100% happier even with just that.

Also with your comment about Hy-vee, we already have a similar store down the street with gas pump and all, I don't think we need another in this area, this area deserves better with a better visibility and this area is a bit more "urbanized" than where the Sam's Club is currently at. But again, my objection to this proposal is less about what it is, and more about the master planning associated with the proposal.

Also on Page 44 of the link I posted of the Penn-American study they city did, the city recommended they up-zone the area near the BRT for this exact reason, they wanted a more urban feel around the BRT stop. THis currently overlaps with the liquor store and a bit of Hyvee.

Mdcastle
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Mdcastle » September 9th, 2021, 12:01 pm

I think we all agree this would be better with apartments on top of the strip mall, but I think the issue is that the strip mall section is going to be remodeled rather than rebuilt. Would making them rebuild it with apartments on top be enough to sink the project and result in Bloomington having to get by without a Hy-Vee and Herbergers being vacant for who knows how long? I don't know.

Looking at the hundreds of comments on the Bloomington Facebooks groups, it's overwhelmingly either "We need a Hy-Vee" or "Save the bowling alley". It's not 'This isn't dense enough" or "We already have enough shopping options".

Apollo
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Apollo » September 9th, 2021, 12:43 pm

Looking at the hundreds of comments on the Bloomington Facebooks groups, it's overwhelmingly either "We need a Hy-Vee" or "Save the bowling alley". It's not 'This isn't dense enough" or "We already have enough shopping options".
I get that from the public without an "urban planning" perspective that this forum is majorly focused in. Most general neighborhood people aren't looking in that kind of perspective, just in the perspective of the "now" and/or the "proposed."

My hopes is that the city will come back to them with a more urban planning perspective, or even apply some urban planning perspective on the people clammoring to save the bowling alley or build the Hy-vee. Why not save the bowling alley but knock down the vacant store and build the grocery store anyways and build apartments on top of the bowling alley. It could be done, yes it would cost money and/or require an new building for the bowling alley, but it could be done. After all it is the city who spent money on the Penn-American study with the study saying the area should be more "urban" with up-zoning specifically for the BRT. My hopes is that the city would try to enforce it a bit more strongly. I understand that beggars can't be choosers and we can't just choose an specific store or commercial property we want in a specific area, but we can choose to specify an area to be more "urban" by up-zoning and adding zoning requirements to an area, which is my point here.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby VacantLuxuries » October 7th, 2021, 9:52 am

The HyVee proposal is being discussed by the Planning Commission tonight, but when I started reading the meeting agenda packet, I noticed something of note and rather frustrating -

Apparently, Metro Transit's Network Next has removed American Blvd for consideration for aBRT for the foreseeable future.

According to their planning site, they don't include American Blvd even in their long range (2035-2040) estimates anymore. The city (correctly) feels betrayed, which comes as no surprise as they're about to push for more density along a rapid transit route that might no longer exist.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby DanPatchToget » October 7th, 2021, 2:31 pm

When you have a corridor with a lot of auto dealerships among other auto-oriented places, it's not too surprising they dropped it from consideration for aBRT. I think east-west rapid transit between Eden Prairie and MOA is needed, but aBRT on American Blvd isn't the best option.

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VacantLuxuries
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby VacantLuxuries » October 7th, 2021, 2:54 pm

It just seems to be an incredible missed opportunity to connect four existing (at the time of this line's construction at least) rapid transit options - SWLRT, D line, Orange Line, and Blue Line, along one of the worst areas of congestion in the state, and to bring a massive suburb closer in line with our supposed regional goals.

I can see it not making as much sense as some of the other routes, and I get it not being on the immediate project horizon, but on the list of things the Met Council has spent money on, it would rank much higher than 'tunnel under a bike path' and '$100 million on advanced design work without consent of the right of way's owner.' Spending half a billion on a bus line to Woodbury ranks higher than this?

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Tiller
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Tiller » October 7th, 2021, 3:20 pm

None of these transit lines have really happened without 2 things:

1) a decent amount of feasibility
2) strong and persistent support from local governments

Things like the red rock BRT and Arden Hills aBRT fell off the radar because they aren't feasible (#1).

The midtown Greenway LRT/Streetcar and American Blvd aBRT haven't had a champion (or champions) in local government (#2) actively pushing for them.

I bet if Bloomington upzoned all along American Blvd and appropriated money annually to fund (or help fund) high frequency bus service along American Blvd, Metro Transit would hop on board in a heartbeat. Even better if some legislators from Bloomington can get approval from the state legislature for a special district along American Blvd for that transit service funding. (Bloomington, please do this)

But adding bits of density here and there in a piecemeal way doesn't provide the longer-range planning/guarantees Metro Transit would need for making these investments. If there was a change in government, and then American Blvd stayed the same, Metro Transit would be forced to make cutbacks or would be left holding the bag.

Tcmetro
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Tcmetro » October 7th, 2021, 4:35 pm

The 542 bus will be getting midday service starting in December.

It's a challenging corridor to build ridership on, though. Most of the neighborhoods to the south are walled off, and are also well served by the 538 and 539 routes. North of the street, most of the buildings are auto-orientated hotels and retail.

thespeedmccool
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby thespeedmccool » October 8th, 2021, 9:25 am

The 542 bus will be getting midday service starting in December.
Is this part of the Orange Line service changes? Or has Metro Transit announced this separately?

Tcmetro
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Tcmetro » October 8th, 2021, 12:04 pm

The 542 bus will be getting midday service starting in December.
Is this part of the Orange Line service changes? Or has Metro Transit announced this separately?
Part of the Orange Line changes.

Mdcastle
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Mdcastle » October 10th, 2021, 8:42 am

Image

Redevelopment of Clover Center proposed, phase one would replace the former Hardware Hank and everything west of there (goodbye 98 Pounds Buffet) with a Lakewinds Coop and a spec retail space. Phase 2 at some future time will replace the east half with a multi-use building with 5 spec retails spaces, and the bank with two restaurant pad sites with patios facing 98th and Lyndale. If the free right is removed pending the results of a larger traffic study of the area, that would possibly leave space for a third site.

Not sure how a hyper-expensive boutique grocery store will do in the area compared to say an Aldi, but apparently they know what they're doing. We had a Byerly's that closed because the prices were too high for the neighborhood so they couldn't justify reinvesting in their store when their lease was up and their freezers needed replacing.

twincitizen
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby twincitizen » October 11th, 2021, 12:03 pm

Link to Planning Commission packet: https://d3n9y02raazwpg.cloudfront.net/b ... 642121.pdf

If I could make one relatively modest change to this plan, which would require nothing more from the developer than some re-grading and additional concrete work:
-Include stairs from the sidewalk down to the parking lot from the corner of 98th and 35W. This is the crosswalk that goes directly to the transit station, and would provide quicker access for anyone walking over the bridge from the west as well. The city has nothing to lose in requiring Kraus-Anderson to provide this additional access.

Mdcastle
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Mdcastle » October 11th, 2021, 5:49 pm

My reading of the plans is it's the intent of the developer to regrade the site so it's level with the street. The only sidewalk connection will lined up with Aldrich, but Orange Line riders could make a desire path across the boulevard and then cross the parking lot.

alexschief
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby alexschief » October 12th, 2021, 7:49 am

Sorry, but 98 Pounds is a historic resource, and must be preserved completely intact.

Bakken2016
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Re: Bloomington - General Topics

Postby Bakken2016 » October 12th, 2021, 9:23 am

This could easily be a mixed use development due to it being right by 98th St Station, this is a disappointment!


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