Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

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DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » February 15th, 2021, 9:16 am

I believe originally the 597 was going to remain when the Orange Line opened, but of course COVID happened and with the huge drop in express bus ridership I assume that's why it's also being replaced by the Orange Line. I wonder how the 460 and 465 will do when the Orange Line starts. Has MVTA proposed any changes for their routes yet? Hopefully they won't be petty like with the Red Line and saturate service on the 35W Corridor.

tmart
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby tmart » February 15th, 2021, 12:20 pm

Yeah it was pretty striking to me how Minneapolis barely appeared in the bus network report. The most generous interpretation is that this will be reviewed in the near future as part of a more comprehensive plan. The most cynical interpretation is that this project is first and foremost a highway reconstruction, and so serving Minneapolis has never been a priority.

In an ideal world, we'd be working towards a comprehensive grid, where most stops on the Blue and Orange lines would be served by a direct, high-frequency feeder line. Great feeder buses are a big boost in general but I think could be especially important for the Orange Line given how pedestrian-unfriendly the station locations are.

Lake St, at least, is heading that direction, while 46th seems somewhat neglected. In a bigger sense, the lack of stops at Franklin or 38th unfortunately somewhat hobbles our ability to realize that type of grid network.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Hero » February 15th, 2021, 11:34 pm

The reasoning stated in the presentation behind abandoning the 515 branch to the VA and the branch down Longfellow Ave is to serve Bloomington Ave south of 66th. What I don't understand is why not extend route 14 instead since it is already on Bloomington Ave and ends at 66th? Then they wouldn't abandon the VA or the airport workers they mentioned in the presentation.

Looking at these southern routes I find myself jealous of the east/west routes available. Maybe some day routes 23 and 46 can get higher frequency or maybe a new route could be added on 35th, 42nd or 58th.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » February 16th, 2021, 1:28 am

Was there a local route serving 50th Street Station at one point? I recall seeing a bus connection available on an old transit map I had.

Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » February 16th, 2021, 2:56 am

The reasoning stated in the presentation behind abandoning the 515 branch to the VA and the branch down Longfellow Ave is to serve Bloomington Ave south of 66th. What I don't understand is why not extend route 14 instead since it is already on Bloomington Ave and ends at 66th? Then they wouldn't abandon the VA or the airport workers they mentioned in the presentation.

Looking at these southern routes I find myself jealous of the east/west routes available. Maybe some day routes 23 and 46 can get higher frequency or maybe a new route could be added on 35th, 42nd or 58th.
Because the Mall of America is a big destination from Richfield. And they are trying to keep the 515 high frequency. If people are going to the VA they can catch the blue line from moa. But that area of Minneapolis just isn't a huge draw.

HiawathaGuy
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby HiawathaGuy » February 16th, 2021, 10:23 am

Was there a local route serving 50th Street Station at one point? I recall seeing a bus connection available on an old transit map I had.
I believe the 7 used to stop at 50th, but they moved that connection to 46th, since the bus could stay on 34th Ave S for a longer stretch and better connect with the train.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby HiawathaGuy » February 16th, 2021, 10:27 am

Was there a local route serving 50th Street Station at one point? I recall seeing a bus connection available on an old transit map I had.
I believe the 7 used to stop at 50th, but they moved that connection to 46th, since the bus could stay on 34th Ave S for a longer stretch and better connect with the train.
I live a block south of the 50th Street LRT station and would sometimes use the 515 to supplement my commute from Best Buy campus when I worked there. I took the train to MOA and the 540 or 542 to the campus most often, but sometimes, if I caught the 535 to 66th and then the 515 to the VA, I could shave about 4 minutes off of my commute (vs. going to MOA and taking the train). However, since the 515 only had one of the 4 high frequency buses that went to the VA, if I missed the connection, I was screwed. So unless I was certain I could make the connection (this was just at the start of the real time info being available), I typically took the more trustworthy connection via MOA.

Hero
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Hero » February 17th, 2021, 11:06 pm

Because the Mall of America is a big destination from Richfield. And they are trying to keep the 515 high frequency. If people are going to the VA they can catch the blue line from moa. But that area of Minneapolis just isn't a huge draw.
I'm curious what the ridership numbers are for route 515. Looks like Southdale to MOA will have six buses an hour (two from route 538) and if route 515 didn't go to MOA people could transfer to high frequency route 5 at Portland Ave to reach MOA.

Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » February 18th, 2021, 11:35 am

Because the Mall of America is a big destination from Richfield. And they are trying to keep the 515 high frequency. If people are going to the VA they can catch the blue line from moa. But that area of Minneapolis just isn't a huge draw.
I'm curious what the ridership numbers are for route 515. Looks like Southdale to MOA will have six buses an hour (two from route 538) and if route 515 didn't go to MOA people could transfer to high frequency route 5 at Portland Ave to reach MOA.
I think 515 to MOA would be better and D line connect to Orange Line instead of MOA

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Bakken2016 » February 18th, 2021, 2:32 pm

Yeah it was pretty striking to me how Minneapolis barely appeared in the bus network report. The most generous interpretation is that this will be reviewed in the near future as part of a more comprehensive plan. The most cynical interpretation is that this project is first and foremost a highway reconstruction, and so serving Minneapolis has never been a priority.
So the Orange Line Connecting Bus Study originally had more improvements in Minneapolis, but then Covid hit and with budget issues the planners focused on making sure good connections existed in Bloomington and Richfield where the least amount of service currently exists. They do plan on revisiting it in the future.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Hero » February 20th, 2021, 3:05 am

I think 515 to MOA would be better and D line connect to Orange Line instead of MOA
I'm curious why route 515 to MOA would be preferred over the D line to MOA? If I had to guess I'd imagine more people would need to transfer in this configuration than if the D line went to MOA.

Connecting the D line to the Orange line sounds interesting but where? Maybe 98th? Would that make the D line to long? Would an Orange line stop be a bigger destination for D line riders than MOA?

Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » March 5th, 2021, 1:01 pm

The express busses that will use orange line stations need some type of orange line branding. Maybe an O before the number to signify that this bus will stop at least at Lake and 46th. Otherwise people will end up waiting longer for a bus that will take them where they want to go.

Example O578 to Southdale via Orange Line

Oreos&Milk
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Oreos&Milk » March 9th, 2021, 8:24 pm

The express busses that will use orange line stations need some type of orange line branding. Maybe an O before the number to signify that this bus will stop at least at Lake and 46th. Otherwise people will end up waiting longer for a bus that will take them where they want to go.

Example O578 to Southdale via Orange Line
Wouldn’t that make northbound NO578 and southbound SO578?

Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » March 9th, 2021, 11:01 pm

I mean other places have letters as rapid transit lines. The O has to be before cause there's no route 05 or something like that. The O would stand out. The other expresses are free added frequency and we need some way to show that it is. Maybe all the buses that go over there could have an orange streak or something. The problem with that is that you would lose flexibility in the fleet and that could be a problem for some of the suburban opt outs

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby alexschief » March 10th, 2021, 7:55 am

Pittsburgh already does this. The city has three dedicated busways, and you can tell if a bus runs on them if there is a letter in front of the route number. For example, the P7 bus to McKeesport runs along the East Busway, which is noted in purple on Port Authority Transit maps.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » March 10th, 2021, 8:33 am

Let's not confuse people even more with figuring out the bus system. The Orange Line will operate frequently enough that I don't think most people will care if there's an express bus with a small number of trips during peak time that can get them to their destination slightly faster than the Orange Line. We can simply put info at Orange Line stations showing regular bus routes that also serve that particular stop, as well as how to get to certain destinations (e.g. Southdale Center via Orange Line and 515, 50th & France via Orange Line and 46, etc.).

Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » March 10th, 2021, 11:49 am

Pittsburgh already does this. The city has three dedicated busways, and you can tell if a bus runs on them if there is a letter in front of the route number. For example, the P7 bus to McKeesport runs along the East Busway, which is noted in purple on Port Authority Transit maps.
Exactly! Jarret Walker does this type of thing a lot on his maps. Not everyone will notice it but enough people will that it will help with capacity at peak hours which could easily become an issue on this corridor. I really feel like these buses will be packed at rush hour.

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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby MSPtoMKE » March 10th, 2021, 11:11 pm

Let's not confuse people even more with figuring out the bus system. The Orange Line will operate frequently enough that I don't think most people will care if there's an express bus with a small number of trips during peak time that can get them to their destination slightly faster than the Orange Line. We can simply put info at Orange Line stations showing regular bus routes that also serve that particular stop, as well as how to get to certain destinations (e.g. Southdale Center via Orange Line and 515, 50th & France via Orange Line and 46, etc.).
This is my take as well. People would have to look up what the ‘O’ in front of the route number meant, and many would interpret it as a zero. It would really only help southbound riders going to Lake St. or 46th. I’d assume northbound riders would be able to figure out they can take any bus that stops at the station by looking at the destination sign. Also, I don’t believe all 35W corridor buses will serve 46th, so it would only be a handful of routes that add to the Orange Line service.
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Trademark
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby Trademark » March 11th, 2021, 12:44 am

Let's not confuse people even more with figuring out the bus system. The Orange Line will operate frequently enough that I don't think most people will care if there's an express bus with a small number of trips during peak time that can get them to their destination slightly faster than the Orange Line. We can simply put info at Orange Line stations showing regular bus routes that also serve that particular stop, as well as how to get to certain destinations (e.g. Southdale Center via Orange Line and 515, 50th & France via Orange Line and 46, etc.).
This is my take as well. People would have to look up what the ‘O’ in front of the route number meant, and many would interpret it as a zero. It would really only help southbound riders going to Lake St. or 46th. I’d assume northbound riders would be able to figure out they can take any bus that stops at the station by looking at the destination sign. Also, I don’t believe all 35W corridor buses will serve 46th, so it would only be a handful of routes that add to the Orange Line service.
They should be required to stop there. We shouldn't gatekeep access.

DanPatchToget
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Re: Orange Line / 35W@94: Downtown to Crosstown Project

Postby DanPatchToget » April 8th, 2021, 10:01 am

The southbound platform at Knox & American is taking shape, as well as the northbound and southbound platforms at South Bloomington TC. It also looks like they'll begin building the trail along the east frontage road soon. Even though it's longer, if I ever bike to the Orange Line I'll probably take 106th and the east frontage road to South Bloomington. 98th & 35W is definitely not a good place for pedestrians and bikers. When I was waiting at the crosswalk where southbound traffic comes off 35W a driver had to hit the brakes a little hard since she was going to try to beat the red light. Had I started going right when the walk signal turned on I very likely would've been hit.


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