Nicollet-Central Streetcar

[woofner]

I'd forgotten in my post above to thank Finance & Commerce for actually referencing the bill number in an article about legislation (cough, strib, cough). Although in this case it was the omnibus tax bill which is pretty easy to find. Anyway, I looked up the text and the authorized area for a district is quite small:

168.1 Subd. 2. Authority to establish district. (a) The governing body of the city may, by
168.2 resolution, establish a value capture district consisting of some or all of the taxable parcels
168.3 located within one or more of the following areas of the city, as described in the resolution:
168.4 (1) the area bounded by Nicollet Avenue on the west, 16th Street East on the south,
168.5 First Avenue South on the east, and 14th Street East on the north;
168.6 (2) the area bounded by Spruce Place on the west, 14th Street West on the south,
168.7 LaSalle Avenue on the east, and Grant Street West on the north;
168.8 (3) the area bounded by Nicollet Avenue or Mall on the west, Fifth Street South on
168.9 the south, Marquette Avenue on the east, and Fourth Street South on the north; and
168.10 (4) the area bounded by First Avenue North on the west, Washington Avenue on the
168.11 south, Hennepin Avenue on the east, and Second Street North on the north.

Also 2 & 4 refer to fully developed areas do they not? Not sure what establishing districts there would accomplish then that couldn't be done with bonding.

[twincitizen]

Geez, with that desciption it sounds like the line won't even cross south of 94. That removes one bridge replacement, for now anyways.

The most obvious and largest redevelopment areas are
1. all that vacant land just south of 94
2. Kmart site (and surrounding area too)
3. north end of Nicollet Mall
4. across the river in "downtown NE"

I actually really like the idea of a short streetcar line from 94 to a Hennepin/1st Ave NE loop across the river. NO FARES NEEDED!!

[FISHMANPET]

So I think this should work, I've never tried to make a map myself:
E: Nope, that didn't work, here's a picture instead:

(Click for slightly bigger)

4 is the 222 development. All together this looks like about 5 blocks, I'm wondering if this is for something else instead?

[twincitizen]

WAIT A MINUTE...Is it just me or did they basically decide to capture the increased tax revenue from the following specific developments:

1. The "parking meter farm" west of the Convention Center
2. 1368 Lasalle (LPM Apartments)
3. Nic on 5th/4Marq/New Xcel HQ
4. 222 Hennepin

Uhh...I'm not sure how I feel about that. All of that development is occuring naturally (save for #1) and has nothing to do with streetcars. Or is that the point? Any future development that occurs, following the implementation of streetcars, WILL contribute to the tax base? Or will we just TIF that out too, to pay for the next phase of the streetcar? You know damn well the Kmart is gonna get TIF'd (to help fund the redevelopment AND streetcar expansion)

When you take it at face value, removing 4 blocks from the tax rolls for 25 years to pay for a 2.5 mile starter streetcar line is INSANITY. Bad move.

[FISHMANPET]

Yup, that would all make sense. That's exactly what's been authorized here.

[mattaudio]

This seems like a really horrible way to govern and to pay for infrastructure.

[trkaiser]

That is so shady. What a horrible precedent to set! Why can't the city just bond for their portion of the tab?

[talindsay]

Isn't there smaller loading gauge for streetcars vs. LRVs?

Yes, but the track gauge is the same for both anyway, and so if the tracks are built to handle LRV weights then they're in business. I don't assume that on this corridor they would place the tracks close enough together to violate LRV widths; the only remaining loading gauge question would be height, and I suppose that could be a limiting factor.

EDIT: actually, even with just a few moments' reflection, I'm betting they're relying on the narrower width to accommodate the Nicollet Mall portion of the line. I do hope they at least consider whether they can make the in-ground portion meet LRV specs, however.

[twincitizen]

While I personally agree that the infrastructure should be future-proof (LRT-ready), I thought one of the cost savings of streetcars was that you didn't have to cut as far down into the pavement due to the lighter weight. With streetcar tracks you can just shave off several inches and embed the tracks, while with LRT you have to basically build a whole new roadbed from scratch, relocate utilities, etc. Can anyone back that up?

But if we're redoing Nicollet Mall anyways...might as well go all the way.

[mattaudio]

Well, do we have any idea if the Nicollet Mall plans for which the city currently seeks state bonding account for future streetcars? LRT?

Or LRT in a subway and streetcars at grade? I can dream, right?

[MotorCity2TwinCities]

Well, do we have any idea if the Nicollet Mall plans for which the city currently seeks state bonding account for future streetcars? LRT?

Or LRT in a subway and streetcars at grade? I can dream, right?

Yes. I read somewhere recently that the RFP for the Nicollet Mall Redesign will direct design teams to include both streetcar and non-streetcar versions of a new Nicollet Mall. I believe the RFQ was just sent out and that a design team will be chosen in 4 weeks, with a final design finished/approved in the fall.

EDIT: Here is the article that I read: http://www.startribune.com/blogs/203422591.html

[twincitizen]

Given the momentum (or is it just political desire?) behind streetcars, I think it's going to happen. Probably smart to have a backup plan just in case something falls through.

As I said earlier, even though I'm mostly an aBRT guy, I can REALLY get behind the idea of a short, fareless streetcar line downtown (roughly Convention Center to Surdyk's) with no cuts to bus service. Bus routes would move to Hennepin and Marq2 AND achieve savings due to running time improvements by avoiding crush loads of free riders downtown. A parade or other Mall event shuts down the streetcar? Tough cookies, it's free anyways, so no one can complain, and the buses will still be running. No forced transfers are created either.

[Andrew_F]

I heard a rumor yesterday that Rybak has essentially secured the federal portion of the financing. Obviously a rumor, and people seem to really enjoy talking about backroom political deals and favors, so make of it what you may. Figured it was worth mentioning anyways.

[mullen]

i would hope all his connections with the obama administration would help. the streetcar, nicollet mall re-do, and east downtown are the big three projects he wants to progress prior to leaving office.

salt lake and kansas city will have a streetcar up before we do. kinda sad.

[min-chi-cbus]

We have light AND heavy rail though...

[ECtransplant]

We *still* only have one running light rail line and one failed heavy line. The entire light rail network should be running by now

[min-chi-cbus]

We *still* only have one running light rail line and one failed heavy line. The entire light rail network should be running by now

But that has nothing to do with KC or SLC. Besides, Seattle is in the same boat (although they are now much more gung-ho about rail than we are).

[VAStationDude]

Transit TIF district is not in the conference committee tax bill that will certainly be passed and signed by Dayton.
Edit: so street car TIF financing is in the tax bill.Guess I should use an actual computer rather than my phone when reading 350 page pdf files.

[lordmoke]

TIF district is fully a go:
http://www.startribune.com/local/blogs/208373671.html

[mullen]

awesome news!