B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
Trademark
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby Trademark » August 13th, 2021, 1:07 pm

What does that mean for the section between ~28th Avenue and the River, which under the “medium alternative” was slated to get a 4-3 conversion and bike lanes, and doesn’t really need full bus lanes due to low traffic congestion?
I wondered this too. A four-lane road (even with two of them painted red) would be a bad outcome here.
Right now it would be but if we're reconstructing lake street for this we gotta look for the next few decades. And this area could easily increase in density and become a part of the system that slows down buses. Whenever possible we need to get Metro lines out of traffic. Converting to a 4-3 locks us out of bus lanes for the foreseeable future.

I'd rather look into a bike Blvd on 29th street. With no traffic able to cross on 27th, 31st, 36th and 42nd, connecting directly to the Mississippi river trail and the lake street bridge on one end and the midtown Greenway via 27th on the other end.

EOst
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby EOst » August 13th, 2021, 2:00 pm

Lake Street is not going to be reconstructed for this project. And with or without bike lanes on this section of Lake Street, not doing a 4-3 conversion locks you into a double-threat situation for crossing pedestrians. There's a good reason these four-lane undivided roads are disappearing throughout the metro.

StandishGuy
Nicollet Mall
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby StandishGuy » August 14th, 2021, 10:18 am

I've noticed that the 21 bus is so much faster between Uptown and E. Lake Street lately. It used to be so painfully slow. It appears that car traffic congestion is down (perhaps due to I35W construction in the area?). Also, it is so nice that the bus doesn't stop at the Chicago Lake Transit Center any more saving close to 5 minutes in turn movements. Pre-Pandemic this bus route had 10,000+ riders and it deserves full red bus lanes where possible to move these folks.

Oreos&Milk
Landmark Center
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby Oreos&Milk » August 20th, 2021, 4:17 am

I'm all for improving bus service on Lake Street, but there's a rail trench 1 block away, which should be a priority too.
I feel like everyone has forgotten about the midtown greenway.. I feel like a reminder protest with oversized pictures of said corridor could be helpful.. seriously it should be THE priority and THE solution keep the B line as slow transit in the community while focusing on the greenway streetcar train as the express option.

The focus on the B line makes me think the greenway streetcar won’t ever happen which seems sad as it’s such an amazing opportunity.

Trademark
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby Trademark » August 20th, 2021, 11:20 am

I'm all for improving bus service on Lake Street, but there's a rail trench 1 block away, which should be a priority too.
I feel like everyone has forgotten about the midtown greenway.. I feel like a reminder protest with oversized pictures of said corridor could be helpful.. seriously it should be THE priority and THE solution keep the B line as slow transit in the community while focusing on the greenway streetcar train as the express option.

The focus on the B line makes me think the greenway streetcar won’t ever happen which seems sad as it’s such an amazing opportunity.
A one track Greenway streetcar will hardly qualify as an express option. If it even gets built
But in theory I do agree with you

talindsay
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby talindsay » August 24th, 2021, 9:58 am

If anything happens in the Greenway I expect it will be regular two-track light rail tracks, with a fence separating the tracks from the bike path. It may be proposed for single-car trains so they can claim it's different and more like a "streetcar" - recall that our "light rail" cars are sold as "streetcars" to other markets - but even then I doubt they'll end up with those limitations. The original "greenway streetcar" study was cute and out of touch, and MT won't put up with being expected to operate something like that.

Oreos&Milk
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby Oreos&Milk » August 26th, 2021, 4:26 am

My understanding was the one track was limited to a few small sections. With nearly completely ROW and prioritization I don’t understand agree with the assumption that it cannot be an expressway. Plus as capacity is needed I imagine those 1 track sections can be upgraded as construction repairs are needed..

Although I’m sure others are more knowledgeable to make some capacity and times projections.

SurlyLHT
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby SurlyLHT » August 26th, 2021, 7:24 am

Does the Greenway Coalition still support the streetcar?

twincitizen
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby twincitizen » August 31st, 2021, 1:29 pm

The more important question is, does any unit of government formally support rail in the greenway? I don't mean "are not opposed", I mean they formally support it, are going to pay for it, and have amended Met Council's Transitway Corridor Plan to include the line, specifically as rail. The answer to that is still and always has been "NO". Sure, it got a vague mention in the recent Go.Minneapolis transportation plan, but that's far short of re-doing the Alternatives Analysis (unfortunately yes, AFAIK it would have to be done all over again).

I hate to be a wet blanket on this project (I've been a booster of it for a long time, the receipts are in this thread), but this will never be more than pure fantasy until Hennepin County fully endorses it and asks Met Council to amend the regional transportation plan to include the line. Heck, Metro Transit did a full-blown AA back in 2013, resulting in a dual-outcome of aBRT on Lake and rail in the greenway, and then MET COUNCIL DID NOT AMEND THE LONG-RANGE PLAN ACCORDINGLY, so it died a quick and quiet death. And more recently, the dramatic cost increases of Southwest and delays to Bottineau (and future inevitable cost increases), coupled with a huge drop in sales tax revenue during the pandemic, have probably added more than a decade to the most optimistic of timelines for Midtown rail. Hennepin County's half-cent sales tax is tapped out on those two LRT projects, plus whatever share of Riverview that Hennepin has committed to pay for the river crossing and new track through Fort Snelling (30% of total costs or something like that?). And then you have the legislature (sometimes bipartisanly) trying to pass the buck on LRT operation costs from the state to the counties.

Let's say, most optimistically, a new AA for Midtown rail is started in 2025-26, after Southwest is running, Bottineau is under construction, and transit ridership at-large has rebounded. At best, rail in the greenway could begin construction in the early 2030s, but I'm not holding my breath. Sadly, I don't have any hope that we'll see trains running in the greenway prior to 2035. And that's if everything goes right.

MNdible
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby MNdible » August 31st, 2021, 3:24 pm

In general, I think that you're right about this. That said, if Angela Conley, for example, decided that this was a top priority, and if there were a real and sustained federal interest in funding transportation projects that focus on underserved populations, and if Bottineau continued to founder, then I wouldn't be surprised if this project suddenly found itself on the verge of construction... in 2028.

Silophant
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby Silophant » August 31st, 2021, 4:38 pm

Why would a new AA be required? Not that I don't believe you, I'm just curious why. Do they automatically expire after 10 years?
Joey Senkyr
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DanPatchToget
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby DanPatchToget » August 31st, 2021, 10:25 pm

If only it were simple as keeping the tracks that paralleled the trail for a brief time, throw down some trolley poles, and get some second-hand trollies to run back and forth as an interim heritage line until the county, state, Met Council, etc. could put in the money to make it a fully functioning light rail service.

Oreos&Milk
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby Oreos&Milk » September 6th, 2021, 2:06 am

I’m willing to wait until 2035-2040.. I think by then the demand will be there! It’s almost 22 so that’s 13-18 years.. that’s not TOO far into the future. I have hope again!

minneboom
Nicollet Mall
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby minneboom » March 22nd, 2022, 9:39 pm

An updated striping concept along Lake Street for the upcoming B Line. Bus only lanes for a lot of Lake Street! I would love to see both bus lanes and bike lanes on the Lake Street Bridge.

https://www.hennepin.us/lake-street-improvements

daveybabymsp
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby daveybabymsp » March 22nd, 2022, 10:30 pm

An updated striping concept along Lake Street for the upcoming B Line. Bus only lanes for a lot of Lake Street! I would love to see both bus lanes and bike lanes on the Lake Street Bridge.

https://www.hennepin.us/lake-street-improvements
Took a while to find the documents, they are at the bottom of the community engagement section FYI. A bit disappointed to see they are only proposing westbound bus lanes for most of the route. Maybe my hopes for bus lanes on both sides of all of lake street were unrealistic

Didier
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby Didier » March 22nd, 2022, 11:30 pm

There are bike lanes on the Lake Street bridge now but nobody uses them, biking on the protected sidewalk instead.

minneboom
Nicollet Mall
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby minneboom » March 23rd, 2022, 11:25 am

There are bike lanes on the Lake Street bridge now but nobody uses them, biking on the protected sidewalk instead.
Are those really bike lanes? If so, I would hope for improved bike lanes on the Lake Street Bridge, with better striping, signage, and protection similar to the Franklin Ave Bridge. Cars go extremely fast over the Lake Street Bridge, which is probably why everyone goes on the sidewalk.

alexschief
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby alexschief » March 23rd, 2022, 12:57 pm

The "bike lanes" on the Lake-Marshall Bridge are really just narrow shoulders. It would be tricky to reconfigure the bridge in the near term, since the sidewalk is protected by a heavy barrier that can't be cheaply moved. If you were to do it, you could shave a foot off each of the travel lanes and the shoulders and add three feet to the sidewalks. That would help quite a bit.

You could also reduce the bridge to two lanes and add a new barrier to protect the outer lanes and use them for wide bike lanes. Or, you could restripe the bridge to three lanes, with the center lane acting as a one-way-at-a-time bus lane, and then split the remaining space between two narrower bike lanes.

But honestly the best option would just be to extend the Midtown Greenway. With a high quality bike crossing just to the north, especially one that doesn't force you to climb the Marshall hill, then the Lake- Marshall Bridge wouldn't be such an issue. Then you could keep the current configuration without losing sleep, maybe change the outer lanes to bus-only, and then widen the sidewalks a bit when the time comes for more work to be done.

fehler
Rice Park
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby fehler » March 23rd, 2022, 1:49 pm

I'm unsure about the stop at 44th Ave. Rather have stop at 42nd and at West River Parkway.

minneboom
Nicollet Mall
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Re: B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

Postby minneboom » March 23rd, 2022, 5:53 pm

I'm unsure about the stop at 44th Ave. Rather have stop at 42nd and at West River Parkway.
I agree. I submitted multiple emails recommending stops at 42nd and West River Parkway to no success.


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