B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

[twincitizen]

No need for a maintenance facility on such a short line, especially with the Southwest facility going in Hopkins. Whether this uses a 66' streetcar or a single 90' LRV doesn't really matter.

How long is a round trip from West Lake to Hi-Lake, 40 minutes? Planned service every 10-15 minutes? You can do the math if you want, but the answer is this line will not require enough vehicles or operators to demand its own maintenance facility. We're talking about 4, 5, or 6 single-car trains in service at any given time. Someone should probably make sure the Hopkins SWLRT facility has room though, given the failure to coordinate things in this region.

Methodology:
20 min one-way trip x 2 = 40 min round trip.
+20 minute recovery* / operator break = 60 minutes of service time
60 / 10min headway = 6 operators & vehicles needed
60 / 15min headway = 4 operators & vehicles needed

*In reality, this number is closer to 10 minutes than 20, so it would actually be 50 / 10 = 5 operators & vehicles during peak. I was being generous.

I wanted to revisit this, now that we have the 13 minute end-to-end trip time estimate. Let's be safe and call it 15 minutes round trip. I think Metro Transit is currently assuming they're gonna run these puppies at full speed in parts of the double-track sections. Bicycle/trail advocates will probably get in the way of that (hopefully not literally) and make it 35MPH max or something...either way it's not going to make a huge difference since the corridor is so short.

Methodology:
15 min one-way trip x 2 = 30 min round trip.
+15 minute recovery* / operator break = 45 minutes of service time
45 / 10min headway = 5 operators & vehicles needed
45 / 15min headway = 3 operators & vehicles needed

*This number might be closer to 10 minutes than 15 (per round trip), so it would actually be 40 / 10 = 4 operators & vehicles during peak. I was being generous. 7.5 minute service (less likely) would require 6 vehicles.

I certainly hope the Hopkins SWLRT facility can be built to handle 5 measly LRVs for Midtown. It's basically been decided that it will be LRV, not "streetcar". Apparently Siemens makes LRVs that are less than 90' but otherwise similar/compatible with the ones we're buying for CCLRT and likely SWLRT, if that matters. Metro Transit is currently planning for 90' platforms.

This line is a no-brainer. The operating costs should be extremely low. I now see how this Greenway line + enhanced bus on Lake Street are both being advanced simultaneously. This is a huge win for Minneapolis and why I am such a huge advocate for the line (both actually!).

[RailBaronYarr]

This line is a no-brainer. The operating costs should be extremely low. I now see how this Greenway line + enhanced bus on Lake Street are both being advanced simultaneously. This is a huge win for Minneapolis and why I am such a huge advocate for the line (both actually!).

Yeah, totally agree. The LRV in the trench is a great alternative to dedicated bus lanes on Lake, but the Enhanced Bus improvements that speed up service and improve comfort/boarding make a big difference for the line on Lake St while staying mixed in with traffic. Great combo for an area of our metro growing extremely fast.

[woofner]

Thanks for doing the math, twincitizen.

This might be a good spot to interject my observation of bus facilities in Seattle & Portland. In both cities I saw enhanced bus infrastructure used on routes that were not branded as such. Some segments of the 72 in Portland (specifically on Alberta St) had raised platforms at stops (I didn't observe any delays in approach). In Seattle it seems to be common to have 1/4 mile stop spacing with nicer than average waiting facilities. Point being, you don't have to blow your wad all at once to upgrade your bus routes if you have a city DOT who sees transit as a transportation solution rather than an obstacle (I plan on making a stink about this if Public Works' proposed Complete Streets policy doesn't do this). Instead transit friendly features can be incorporated along with street reconstruction.

This was not done on Lake St. The bump-outs there are a welcome improvement for pedestrians, but they were not done at transit stops because if you work in Medina you're bound to see transit as an obstacle. In conjunction with the streetcar, I don't see full enhanced bus (TVMs, RTDs, etc) as being necessary on Lake, but at least some things should be done, like fixing Hennepin County's bump-out failure.

[Anondson]

I certainly hope the Hopkins SWLRT facility can be built to handle 5 measly LRVs for Midtown.

There is some sense in having the Hopkins facility double duty for the midtown line. But I've come to see some strong logic for this line to have its own facility for its own LRVs.

There are at least three busy at grade crossings between the Hopkins facility and the proposed Midtown line. Blake, Wooddale, Beltline. Downtown Hopkins isn't that busy except with semi deliveries to Supervalu. Imagine a crash at any of these busy crossings with an LRV. Not only would this cease service on the SW line, it would interrupt the Midtown line as badly because the LRVs for Midtown are all housed out in Hopkins.

I'll tell you, Saint Louis Park has remarkably few north/south streets running through the suburb. Beltline, Wooddale/Dakota, Louisiana, and Texas. Beltline and Wooddale are both interrupted by the rail crossing. They wouldn't be too pleased having even more rail traffic than before interrupting street flow than is necessary with LRVs passing through that aren't there to serve the stations.

For reliability of service to Midtown it makes sense to invest in facilities right on that line.

[RailBaronYarr]

How often would LRVs be heading to the maintenance facility?

[Anondson]

Isn't it every day? Leave in the morning and return at night?

[talindsay]

Sorry, that's not a good reason to build a separate maintenance facility. It would take a pretty severe crash to disrupt service on the Southwest tracks for 24 hours, and given that both Central's AND Hiawatha's facilities are on the near side of those potential crash sites, there would be plenty of redundancy to provide enough cars for Midtown operations from either of those fleets even if the line were cut off for more than 24 hours, without even reducing service levels on anything but Southwest south of West Lake.

Besides, given that Southwest is predicted to have much more ridership and much more equipment, the marginal impact on Midtown of any problems on Southwest certainly wouldn't be a big consideration.

Finally, as it stood for a decade, a crash *anywhere* on Hiawatha would stop service on the entire line on the far side of the crash from Franklin. Given that they've already chosen to not put duplicate maintenance facilities along all the lines, they're not especially worried about an exceptional service interruption.

[RailBaronYarr]

Isn't it every day? Leave in the morning and return at night?

talindsay basically covers the risk part of what I was getting at, but beyond that.. If 6 vehicles leave in the AM and come back in the PM, I don't know how big of a deal it would be for those N-S street crossings. An single vehicle passing by 6 times early in the morning and late in the evening won't significantly slow down vehicle traffic, IMO.

[FISHMANPET]

Are all these maintenance facilities full facilities? Could they just build some storage sheds for new lines (not necessarily this one, speaking more in general) and move cars to one of the existing maintenance facilities to do maintenance? Or does a maintenance bay not take up that much space in comparison to storage?

[Tcmetro]

Its probably better to centralize operating facilities, especially for a line with so few vehicles.

--

Metro Transit posted the slides from the TAC meeting the other day, with some very interesting information:

Ridership:
Enhanced bus (22,500): 11,000 + 3,000 in the expanded corridor (Minnehaha to Snelling), and an additional 8,500 local bus riders.
Streetcar (20,500): 11,000 + add'l 9,500 local bus riders (primarily beyond the study area)
Combination (32,000): 9,500 rail riders, 8,500 enhanced bus riders, with an additional 8,000 between Minnehaha and Snelling, and 6,000 local bus riders.

Travel time savings:
12 minutes for enhanced bus, 29 minutes for rail.

TOD, Density, and Affordable housing are all nearly the same.

Capital and maintenance costs:
Enhanced bus: $47.5 million, $7 million per year
Streetcar: $192 million, $8.5 million per year
Combination: $225 million, $14.8 million per year
Combination with extension: $244 million, $15.1 million per year

VMT reduction is much higher for the rail alternative.

In the checklist of goals, the dual alternative gets the highest rank. Wonder if they will actually pursue a bus and rail alternative?

http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... tation.pdf

[Wedgeguy]

I'm curious as to where you or MTC plan to put stations along the route. The number of station will make a difference as to speed and length of time?

[mulad]

Proposed stations are on pages 5, 6, and 7 of the PDF.

[Southside]

Looking at Page 7, how awesome would it be to turn the 'enhanced bus' portion into rail and then interline the Midtown Corridor with the Green Line and create a Circle line? Sounds expensive and challenging to engineer but it would provide direct rail connections between Downtown, Uptown, the U, Midtown, Merriam Park, etc.

[orangevening]

I'm not sure if this has been posted here, but it's a interesting read if you have the time.

http://www.midtowncommunityworks.org/do ... aperLO.pdf

[David Greene]

Looking at Page 7, how awesome would it be to turn the 'enhanced bus' portion into rail and then interline the Midtown Corridor with the Green Line and create a Circle line?

I think a more interesting option is to keep the enhanced bus on Lake and connect to the Green Line as planned and then later extend the rail portion east along the Greenway, over the river bridge, down along the Short Line and into downtown St. Paul. That provides a great connection between south Minneapolis and downtown St. Paul, which should be a quicker ride than catching the Green Line through downtown Minneapolis. It would also serve the westerly portions of St. Paul quite well. It's all existing rail corridor except the bit to get across Hiawatha. I think it should be possible to squeeze it under the Hiawatha bridge though the Hi Lake triangle development may preclude that. A short tunnel under Hiawatha should also be possible.

[talindsay]

Looking at Page 7, how awesome would it be to turn the 'enhanced bus' portion into rail and then interline the Midtown Corridor with the Green Line and create a Circle line?

I think a more interesting option is to keep the enhanced bus on Lake and connect to the Green Line as planned and then later extend the rail portion east along the Greenway, over the river bridge, down along the Short Line and into downtown St. Paul. That provides a great connection between south Minneapolis and downtown St. Paul, which should be a quicker ride than catching the Green Line through downtown Minneapolis. It would also serve the westerly portions of St. Paul quite well. It's all existing rail corridor except the bit to get across Hiawatha. I think it should be possible to squeeze it under the Hiawatha bridge though the Hi Lake triangle development may preclude that. A short tunnel under Hiawatha should also be possible.

That would be lovely; but I think it's more pragmatic to extend the line only to about Cleveland, then cut up to University onto the Green Line tracks to get on to Saint Paul.

I advance this idea whenever I get the chance, so I'll do it again here: line starts at West Lake, runs in the Greenway to Hiawatha. Midtown station underneath the Blue Line tracks; midtown tracks then go underground for a very short tunnel to about 29th on Lake, re-emerge in the median. Tracks then run down East Lake, across the river, up Marshall, then turn north perhaps at Cleveland or maybe Prior or Fairview to merge into the Green Line tracks. This allows one-seat service from Uptown to DT Saint Paul with a minimum of new tracks. Since they're now (wisely) talking about single LRVs for this line, they don't even have to worry about the speed issue on the interlined segment on University (though operations would probably be slow enough to accommodate interlining streetcars with LRVs there anyway).

Keep in mind that by putting a full wye at West Lake and another at the junction on University, it would be possible to run special event services in all sorts of interesting ways - an Uptown - Midtown - UMN - DT Mpls loop, an Uptown-DT Mpls express for Twins games, a one-seat Edina Prairie (or whatever made-up SW suburb) to Uptown to DT Saint Paul service, etc. Of course, a full wye at West Lake might be kind of difficult and a full wye on University Ave would be a big challenge; but those could also be added later if and when the usefulness became manifest.

[David Greene]

Tracks then run down East Lake, across the river, up Marshall, then turn north perhaps at Cleveland or maybe Prior or Fairview to merge into the Green Line tracks.

If we have enhanced bus on East Lake, then this route is duplicative. I don't see Metro Transit putting rail in East Lake any time soon given the recent reconstruction. Local businesses would be up in arms.

A route along the Short Line can make connections to Selby, Grand, St. Clair, W. 7th, United hospital (a bit of a walk though), Xcel, etc. all with minimal right-of-way acquisition. I know the area is less dense than some other options but the cost should be minimized given a route in an existing rail corridor.

It could also interline with a (far future) Red Rock-like LRT.

And we could open that Union Depot LRT platform.

[talindsay]

Honestly, I don't think we'll see *any* expansion of this beyond Hiawatha any time soon - along either route.

I live so close to the eastern portion of the Greenway that I could hit the trains with a slingshot out my bedroom window, so for purely selfish reasons an extension in the Greenway would be better than East Lake, but realistically I just don't think it makes any sense. Unlike west of Hiawatha, the Greenway east of Hiawatha is three full blocks off Lake street, the only significant commercial node east of Hiawatha. Whereas Lake Street is lined with businesses, the Greenway is lined with R1A single-family homes and a couple low-density industrial uses - in other words, nothing worth building a station for, not much potential addition to ridership and not much chance for TOD. The same is true in Saint Paul. All the potential ridership generators, and benefits for the line, are on Lake/Marshall.

And of course, it wouldn't be "duplicative" of enhanced bus on Lake Street, because the enhanced bus on Lake Street would be the near-term method of developing businesses and ridership *before* the rail extension, which would replace it rather than duplicate it. I can't imagine this happening within ten years, and even then, only if the Greenway streetcar ridership comes to dominate the corridor at the expense of buses on Lake. I actually think that's fairly likely given that from Hennepin to Hiawatha the Greenway is only a block off Lake, and the frequency and speed of the ride there will be better than Lake Street even with "enhanced" bus that's stuck in Lake Street traffic.

Edit: for the record though, if they *did* choose to build the streetcar in the Greenway and put a station at or near the River, I would be able to sell or park my car and become 95% transit-dependent; with the line on Lake Street, I would not do so. Personally, for me David's plan would be way better than mine, but I think studies would show everything is on Lake Street over here.

[twincitizen]

Back on Planet Earth, there are a few open houses coming up to discuss the project:
http://www.metrotransit.org/open-houses ... s-analysis

Wednesday, Nov. 20, 6-8 p.m.
Intermedia Arts
2822 Lyndale Ave. S., Minneapolis
Served by routes 4 & 21

Thursday, Nov. 21, 6-8 p.m.
Colin Powell Center, 3rd Floor
2924 4th Ave. S., Minneapolis
Served by routes 11 & 21

Both open houses will include a presentation at approximately 6:30 p.m. Project staff will present results of the alternatives analysis, including cost, projected ridership, travel time changes, proposed stations and service plans. The public can provide input on which of the these alternatives should move forward for more detailed design, engineering and construction:

Enhanced bus service on Lake Street
Streetcar on the Midtown Greenway
Combination of streetcar on the Midtown Greenway and enhanced bus service on Lake Street, with an enhanced bus extension to St. Paul

[Tcmetro]

Display Boards and Presentation are available now:

http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... boards.pdf
http://www.metrotransit.org/Data/Sites/ ... tation.pdf