B Line Lake St Rapid Bus, Midtown Rail Transit

[woofner]

It can't replace 21/53 or really reduce frequency.
Unless trench was used as alternate & exclusive busway for those two lines, (which no one is suggesting, I don't think) it won't improve University traffic or line efficiency.

Well one of the alternatives being analyzed is BRT in the trench, and I think the idea is that a successful rapid line off of Lake St would mean that fewer 21s would need to be run. Certainly any space that opened up on Lake would just be filled by more traffic, though, so I agree that reducing congestion isn't a realistic goal. I would hope that the primary goal is improving the transit experience for the thousands of existing daily riders and that a secondary goal is increasing transit ridership in the corridor. Why should every transit project need to benefit motorists? Certainly most roadway projects do nothing for transit riders.

Instead of wasting their time studying a streetcar on Lake St itself - which is doomed to sluggishness - they should study rerouting the 21 to the trench. Doubt the politics will work with that idea though.

[Nathan]

I always wrestle with the convenience of the trench and the visibility of on street transit. The greenway is definitely going to be faster/cheaper/easier, but there is no trolley on the street calling to everybody to ride it everyday. if the goal is more ridership, visibility and location are extremely important. Suppose you loaded up on goodies at the new Lake and Nicollet Kmart (he he) do you want to walk a block North to the greenway or should it be at your feet on lake street regardless of it taking 5 minutes longer to get to Hiawatha?

In my own mind I kind of envision it running along the greenway, to the Blue line, but then popping out on Lake street and running to the river on the street (future), But I'd love to see it on the street, just a better urban aesthetic?

A big question too is, does the streetcar have the 11% higher ridership than the buses do, and is that enough to stop people from taking their cars on those shopping/commuting trips, and decongest lake street? If it is on Lake street and that makes the street seem more congested, will more people in the Neighborhood opt out of driving, and take the street car instead? And if it's in the trench, will it still be just as convenient for them to take their car, so we'll have the streetcar with less ridership and an equally congested lake street?

[Tcmetro]

Transit in the trench is completely worth it. The travel time improvements are so vast that the majority of people would switch over to the new service. A bus trip from West Lake LRT to Hiawatha is easily a 30-40 minute trip, whereas a service in the trench could make the run in 10-15 minutes. Not only that, but the Uptown core is quite walkable from the trench, the LynLake redevelopments are all right along the trench, and massive TOD opportunities are abound at Nicollet and Chicago. What I think need to be executed right are the bus terminals at either end of the line. Transfers to the 21 (and other bus routes) need to be seemless.

As for mode technology, I think that a two-track LRT line should be built. I think that one-car operation will be good fit for the near term, but future expansion should be considered. Additionally, trains could use the existing Franklin Shops or the proposed Eden Prairie Shops. I'd prefer for frequency to be in the 5-minute range, for timed connections to the Blue and Green lines, and also to provide turn-up-and-go frequencies for the short corridor length. The 21 could easily be bumped down to 12-15 minutes in the offpeak, and maybe every 10 in the afternoon peak.

[mattaudio]

It seems like the marginal cost between streetcar as proposed and LRT would not be that much.... maybe a few wider bridges?

[UptownSport]

(correction to previous, wrote "university" when it should've been "Lake")

Why should every transit project need to benefit motorists? Certainly most roadway projects do nothing for transit riders.

No one's saying "every transit project need(s) to benefit motorists" here.
As Mndible pointed out, Lake has a transportation problem, it'd be great if this project could make transport better for everyone,

In foto's example of K-mart snack attack, Greenway is much, much closer than Lake street as currently situated.
Lake has signs to advertise, no reason Greenway couldn't (and actually does now!) have same.

To me, trolley in greenway has already been decided and they just need to fabricate data to enforce that-

[mulad]

While we're on the subject, I don't see the point in using a streetcar vehicle in the Greenway. For the sake of operation/maintenance/parts efficiencies, why not just run single car LRT vehicles? There is a lot to be said, from a fiscal standpoint, for not introducing yet another vehicle type.

Yeah, the corridor is so short that you'd only need 2 or 3 vehicles anyway to have pretty frequent service. Assuming that we make good on all of the options on the Siemens LRV contract, there will be 126 vehicles in the fleet once Southwest opens. I think we can manage to divert a couple of them to Midtown Corridor service.

[David Greene]

Just sharing my own experience, not necessarily disagreeing with your conclusion.

A bus trip from West Lake LRT to Hiawatha is easily a 30-40 minute trip

This is highly variable. When I ride the 53 at either 8am or 8:30am from Uptown, I get to downtown St. Paul in 45 minutes, so it can't possibly take 40 minutes to get to Hiawatha. I don't think I've ever experienced that even at the peakest of peak.

Even the 21 near the end of the peak period is nearly as fast as the 53. This is coming from a regular rider.

Not only that, but the Uptown core is quite walkable from the trench, the LynLake redevelopments are all right along the trench, and massive TOD opportunities are abound at Nicollet and Chicago.

Uptown is well connected, yes, but Uptown businesses are not the ones that most need the benefits of better transit access.

I'm more worried about all the shops in-between Lyndale/Nicollet/Chicago/Hiawatha.

The 21 could easily be bumped down to 12-15 minutes in the offpeak, and maybe every 10 in the afternoon peak.

Be very careful about changing the 21. It is an absolute lifeline for the disabled and the elderly.

[David Greene]

they should study rerouting the 21 to the trench. Doubt the politics will work with that idea though.

And I hope it stays that way! A bus would be really inappropriate in the Greenway. I can't imagine riding a bike in a trench next to buses. It really does not sound pleasant.

[David Greene]

While we're on the subject, I don't see the point in using a streetcar vehicle in the Greenway. For the sake of operation/maintenance/parts efficiencies, why not just run single car LRT vehicles? There is a lot to be said, from a fiscal standpoint, for not introducing yet another vehicle type.

That's a really good point. Will Metro Transit go for a federal match? An LRV might push the project over the Small Starts threshold, but maybe not. Either way, I'm not sure a study under the federal rules would see this kind of savings as such studies tend to be done in isolation from other lines in the region. At least they have been so far in MSP.

Could the existing LRV maintenance facilities be used for streetcars as well? If not, that's a savings that would show up in a study.

I've never heard anyone seriously talk about LRT in the Greenway so I doubt it's even being considered.

[mulad]

Of course, one issue with using LRVs -- especially if they were to use the Hiawatha service facility or others -- is that the "streetcar" tracks would have to connect with the light-rail tracks at some point. If it is exclusively a streetcar line, it could be operated independently, though that brings up the question of where to put a new service facility in this pretty constrained corridor (particularly difficult exactly because it's a trench).

[mattaudio]

No matter if it is a streetcar line or a LRT line, it would be a mistake not to connect to the LRT for operational flexibility.

[Viktor Vaughn]

I thought I heard there isn't enough room for LRT, or even consistently double tracked streetcars, in the trench. I thought there was a limit to the streetcar frequencies possible because they can only pass in certain places. Is this true?

[David Greene]

Of course, one issue with using LRVs -- especially if they were to use the Hiawatha service facility or others -- is that the "streetcar" tracks would have to connect with the light-rail tracks at some point.

Pretty easy to do at the Kenilworth junction, no?

[David Greene]

I thought I heard there isn't enough room for LRT, or even consistently double tracked streetcars, in the trench. I thought there was a limit to the streetcar frequencies possible because they can only pass in certain places. Is this true?

MGC did a single-track streetcar study and claimed it's feasible. But that's a long way from a real study. There should be room for double track as double-tracked freight used to run under the center of the bridges.

Hennepin county made a big mistake in the design of phase II of the Greeway. They're going to have to rip up and relocate a lot of asphalt, not to mention exit ramps.

[UptownSport]

they should study rerouting the 21 to the trench. Doubt the politics will work with that idea though.

This would be best scenario, if possible. Buses would be off Lake so they could move, and city would need to spend little as vehicles are already in stock. There would be no needless redundancy-

[woofner]

I've never heard anyone seriously talk about LRT in the Greenway so I doubt it's even being considered.

Then you should go to the website that kicked off this discussion:

The project also will recommend the best method of delivering transit service in the Midtown Corridor: light rail, streetcar or bus rapid transit.

And I hope it stays that way! A bus would be really inappropriate in the Greenway. I can't imagine riding a bike in a trench next to buses. It really does not sound pleasant.

Uh, don't you ride a bike on streets next to buses? And I'm sorry if you would find it unpleasant, but those elderly and disabled individuals that ride the 21 might prefer to save 20 minutes on crossing town. I understand, though, that people who don't take the bus don't get that people who do take the bus are already used to walking at least a block, and so they think it would be an odious burden, which makes this idea politically fraught.

I thought I heard there isn't enough room for LRT, or even consistently double tracked streetcars, in the trench.

Katie Walker (project lead for the SW Transitway until the Met council took over) always used to claim that there was enough room for doubletracked LRT and the bike trail west of Nicollet, and I believe the ROW is the same or greater east as well till Hiawatha. It would require rebuilding the trail, though - I'm not sure to what width - and building retaining walls in places.

[eluko]

Could one still call it the "Greenway" with motorized vehicles running through it? The hardcore metro riders get crazy ideas sometimes. Sure a bus would be cheap and quick but it would kill out the chances of there ever being an LRT to Westgate or a proper Mpls streetcar network. Transit routes not only take you from place to place but provide infrastructure that can be used to improve a city and this balance should be considered more often.

[woofner]

To hear some politicians speak, economic development is the only reason to build transit. You may favor certain types of transit because they make cities feel more like the cities in Europe you love, but my goal is to make transit convenient and competitive to cars. If that makes the Greenway slightly more noisy, so be it. I don't think that buses on the south side of the trench would be significantly noisier than trains would be. Frankly LRT east of Hiawatha is a fantasy, and even as a streetcar, it's a stretch. When measuring the alternatives by their expandability outside of the trench, BRT is the clear winner.

That said, my personal preference is for LRT in the trench. The other alternatives certainly merit study, even if it takes two years. Blame Rybak for not starting this process in 2007 after the first streetcar study was finished.

[mattaudio]

The problem (well, one of many) with BRT is that as soon as people see pavement that's "under-utilized" they think it should be used for cars. I kid you not, some people would likely see this as the ultimate HOV/HOT lane bypass between St. Paul and the western suburbs... The 29th Street Crosstown freeway redux?

[twincitizen]

Sort of related to this conversation:

How come trolley buses are not a mode choice in the Twin Cities? You get the electric operation of LRT/Streetcar without the enormous capital expenditure of rail or disruption to local businesses. Much quicker implementation. Trolley buses are not uncommon...seems odd that we don't even consider them.

For example, Metro Transit's planned aBRT system could be converted to electrified trolleybuses in the future. At that point the streetcar vs. aBRT argument has basically been reduced to an argument about whether the tires should be made of steel or rubber. A lot of the benefits of streetcar fall away if it was streetcar vs. trolleybus, rather than streetcar vs. noisy, smelly diesel bus.

Back to the conversation about operational efficiency, it really bothers me that it isn't a bigger part of the process. If we do streetcars (Nicollet and/or Midtown), where is the maintenance facility? How do the vehicles get there? Can the streetcar lines be connected to the LRT system so streetcar vehicles can share a facility with LRT? Are streetcars allowed to travel on LRT lines that are in-service? Are there platform clearance issues? or do we have to build a whole new money sucking operation? These questions are not trivial, but politicians don't care. They just picture themselves at the ribbon cutting and nothing else matters.

For fiscal/operational reasons alone, I am not inclined to support a new vehicle mode in the Twin Cities. Single vehicle LRT for the Greenway and aBRT for everything else. Bus technology is rapidly improving, and before long we could see electric buses that don't require catenary everywhere (better hybrids with quieter engines, full electrics that recharge at the stations, etc.)

Just because you're a pro-transit democrat doesn't mean cost issues aren't important. This is expensive shit we're talking about here.

/tirade