Nicollet-Central Streetcar

[twincitizen]

Holy shiznit, Sue Haigh (Met Council chairperson) just put Minneapolis' streetcar plan on BLAST! http://blogs.twincities.com/cityhallsco ... do-it-now/

She basically said that a project that does not improve mobility and is primarily development-focused should not be competing for the same pots of federal money as actual transportation-based transit. Not to mention that the Met Council's plan still does not include streetcars, so Minneapolis should slow their roll and start talking to the Met Council.

[alleycat]

So then Sue why don't you route the SW and Bottineau lines down real transit corridors? Oh you don't want suburbanites to deal with city folk. That's what I thought.

The streetcars have been in the planning stages since prior to 2007. I think that's called a fair warning.

[talindsay]

Meh, I think your post and that blog both overstate it. Minnesotans love passive-aggressive positioning and there's certainly plenty of it from the council chair there, but ultimately she's just pointing out that the city needs to include the Council (and the CTIB) if they plan to get any non-local funding for the project. She's also saying that the Council needs to insert its tedious bureaucracy into the project, which I think is one of the reasons Minneapolis has been going it alone thus far - the Council seems to find ways to slow everything down and make it more expensive, while Minneapolis wants to avoid that.

[ECtransplant]

And avoid the best transit corridors.

[mullen]

yes i agree with you. passive agressive is apt description of that writing. the central cities had to go it alone because met council doesnt have streetcars on its radar. we have two suburban lrt lines in the pipeline and some expanded bus service. mpls wants to use any leverage it may have with the current powers that be in washington.

but now every city is either studying or building streetcars and it's become this arms race to get the federal funding. kansas city and cincinnati will have their lines up and running before our cities have shovels in the ground.

[RailBaronYarr]

As an off-shoot, just further evidence that funding mechanisms for projects (mass transit and roads, I'll point out) is messed up. This is a streetcar line within one city (and planned to be part of a city-wide system). Not even a regional mobility enhancer, let alone something that enhances mobility and shipping capacity across states. Our local taxes should provide much more of the share of this type of project IMO, but our land-use patterns (density of people and businesses) and prop tax structure don't allow for that. Federal funding should be for things like interstate highways and rail, but too often so much money goes to things like expanding freeways and interchanges within metro areas, and then we wouldn't be fighting KC for money.

[helsinki]

Another "get to the back of the line, Minneapolis!" article:

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/blog/conra ... ed-transit

[RailBaronYarr]

I'm not sure the article really understands what the term 'development-oriented transit' really means. It states it as: "transportation improvement, arguably with an eye more toward development itself than toward boosting mobility or access?" To me, development-oriented transit is public transit geared specifically at linking existing successful places with high concentration of people, amenities, and jobs. The reverse is building said places around new/existing transit facilities.

Regardless, the article isn't too far off-base. While I'm excited for any transit improvements (and a streetcar necessitates certain transit amenities that improve the experience), I'm not sure that this corridor/technology is a total slam dunk for improving mobility/access, but more the typical argument that 'once the rails are in the ground development will occur because of its permanence and rail bias we have.'

[David Greene]

Regardless, the article isn't too far off-base. While I'm excited for any transit improvements (and a streetcar necessitates certain transit amenities that improve the experience), I'm not sure that this corridor/technology is a total slam dunk for improving mobility/access, but more the typical argument that 'once the rails are in the ground development will occur because of its permanence and rail bias we have.'

100% agree. I have serious questions about the purpose of this line. It will force transfers at either end for those wanting limited-stop service. Who not simply implement aBRT? Are rails and trucks really worth it here?

I'm open to being convinced, but as a transit service I don't see what this line contributes. Chair Haigh is right to warn against seeking federal funds. The city needs to work with the Met Council and either get this integrated in the TPP or go it alone for funding. In either case, Metro Transit must absolutely run the line.

We complain about the suburbs flouting the Council's plans all the time. We should hold the cities to the same standard.

[orangevening]

aBRT would work for residents but it won't capture the out-of-town/convention center/ downtown hotels crowd like a streetcar would. It would totally open up Eat Street/ NorthEast / St. Anthony-Main/ Central to visitors of Minneapolis AND serve local residents better than the current bus line (the 18 and 10 will keep running until the full line is built so no forced transfers). Plus it's probably the only chance to redevelop the Kmart site. And everyone wants that.

[RailBaronYarr]

So are we building this line for people who live here and use it every day to get around or convention/out of town type people (which further entrenches us in needing that type of business to justify the cost of the streetcar)?? I don't think it's true at all that redeveloping the K-Mart site is dependent on a technology type for transit. aBRT with streetcar-like facilities on the sidewalk would also improve service (thought with a little lower ride comfort and capacity), but would be a great test/investment before going for the full-blown streetcar. It could be made even better if Nicollet got a dedicated transit lane (for both streetcar and bus).

[talindsay]

Wow everybody on this board is against everything that is actually being built recently - you would think it was the Strib comments section. I for one am glad to see this going forward and an disappointed at all the negativity on this board recently. I'm not cynical enough to drink the haterade i guess.

[RailBaronYarr]

Wow everybody on this board is against everything that is actually being built recently - you would think it was the Strib comments section. I for one am glad to see this going forward and an disappointed at all the negativity on this board recently. I'm not cynical enough to drink the haterade i guess.

I actually really like this corridor. I also really like riding on streetcars/LRT vs buses and I do agree with a lot of the benefits. But it seems odd that Minneapolis would need a funky funding system based on existing development AND federal funding to get this built. Wouldn't an excellent compromise be to use K-Mart site development as an actual source of TIF, build dedicated-lane aBRT with off-street amenities, and prove the line can get enough ridership to justify putting rail in the ground? In this way, Minneapolis/Met Council aren't fighting each other for funding.

[UptownSport]

I think it's great- perfect place for a streetcar!
It's going to be a pain until it replaces the 18, tho

[MotorCity2TwinCities]

I also am in favor of this project. It will be interesting to see if/how the city will be able to obtain all of the necessary funding for a 2015 groundbreaking. Tiger V Grant + Value Capture District + ????

[orangevening]

So are we building this line for people who live here and use it every day to get around or convention/out of town type people (which further entrenches us in needing that type of business to justify the cost of the streetcar)?? I don't think it's true at all that redeveloping the K-Mart site is dependent on a technology type for transit. aBRT with streetcar-like facilities on the sidewalk would also improve service (thought with a little lower ride comfort and capacity), but would be a great test/investment before going for the full-blown streetcar. It could be made even better if Nicollet got a dedicated transit lane (for both streetcar and bus).

There was a capitalized "and" in my post regarding out-of-towners / residents. Why not build something nice for people that use transit in this corridor. Nicollet (and probably Central, although I haven't been up there in awhile) isn't big enough for transit dedicated lanes without taking away on-street parking which would kill small businesses there. aBRT is perfect for a 4 lane road with little commercial like Snelling. As nice as you make a bus it not going spur development that's why mayors all over the country are clamoring over each other to build streetcars. Build a Nicollet/Central streetcar and a Midtown streetcar and the Kmart site becomes a major transit center with a ton of room for new development that people will be fighting over. Maybe I'm a dreamer, but this seems like a no brainer.

[Nick]

Wow everybody on this board is against everything that is actually being built recently - you would think it was the Strib comments section. I for one am glad to see this going forward and an disappointed at all the negativity on this board recently. I'm not cynical enough to drink the haterade i guess.

Sorry if it seems that way. I can imagine it must be annoying as hell around here to be for some of the (non-board) status quo positions lately. But that said, it's got to be helpful in the grand scheme of things to have people constantly arguing for things to be better, otherwise this is the quality of the opposition to Republicans at the legislature.

[RailBaronYarr]

There was a capitalized "and" in my post regarding out-of-towners / residents. Why not build something nice for people that use transit in this corridor. Nicollet (and probably Central, although I haven't been up there in awhile) isn't big enough for transit dedicated lanes without taking away on-street parking which would kill small businesses there. aBRT is perfect for a 4 lane road with little commercial like Snelling. As nice as you make a bus it not going spur development that's why mayors all over the country are clamoring over each other to build streetcars. Build a Nicollet/Central streetcar and a Midtown streetcar and the Kmart site becomes a major transit center with a ton of room for new development that people will be fighting over. Maybe I'm a dreamer, but this seems like a no brainer.

I recognize that, but it seems like the out-of-towners is who are driving the technology choice (rail being "nice"). I have come to believe that the frequency (headway) and speed of service on a BRT can have just as much impact as a streetcar. Proper platforms/shelters that make the service feel high end, electric buses that don't pollute particulate or noise, and speedy boarding all make BRT extremely close to rail. This might not drive a giant project up front but will definitely spur long-term development.

Also, my calculation shows 80' ROW for almost all of Nicollet south of 94 (maybe I'm wrong, I'm using Hennepin Cty's GIS system with the built-in measurement tool). That allows for a 40' side to be: 9.5' sidewalk/trees, 8' parking (bump-out at intersections for peds and bus stops), 11.5' bus-only lane, 11' car lane. No center turn lanes (keep min mind, we're moving people not cars through this corridor now). It could definitely be done. I also find it a little amusing that we're still thinking small businesses would die without the spots directly facing them given the vast amount of off-street parking we've required and all the side-street spots that would remain (along with the additional access for potential customers from vastly improved transit). Just my take, I guess.

[VAStationDude]

Wow everybody on this board is against everything that is actually being built recently - you would think it was the Strib comments section. I for one am glad to see this going forward and an disappointed at all the negativity on this board recently. I'm not cynical enough to drink the haterade i guess.

People are negative because the streetcar decreases mobility, relies on a horrible financing source and wastes money that could otherwise be used for quality transit here in Minneapolis-Saint Paul or elsewhere in America. If streetcars elsewhere in America are any indication as to how our's will run, it will be slower and less frequent than the 18. The funding mechanism shifts tax dollars from projects that have developed and will develop without the street car. This thing also competes for scarce dollars that could go to actual transit improvements like aBRT here or LRT in other cities.

Earlier this month I spent a few days in Portland and experienced their streetcar. If RT and train fan-boys think Portland's street car is a good model for our city to emulate, they're seriously wrong. There's no way to describe the Portland street car other than a joke. My hotel was along the Willamette south of downtown within 200 feet of a streetcar stop. Buses do not serve the area in any meaningful way. Because of the how the streetcar stations are positioned northbound buses are unable to get from the Oregon Health Sciences University lower campus through the south river front area to downtown. The southbound buses are still able to navigate the area so they're able to actually serve destinations with people rather than a freeway off ramp on a hill slope like the northbound buses. Walking to the center of downtown wasn't that far but it's uphill, my legs were tired from a long vacation and there were no buses so we used the street car. The first problem was the frequency. It's no better than 16 minutes at any point (the 18 has better frequencies from 6 am to 11pm). As a visitor it wasn't such a big deal since we had no particular place to be at any point during our stay but it wouldn't work well for users who actually use it in their daily lives. The reliability was horrendous. We caught the thing near the beginning of the line and it somehow ended up being five minutes or more late nearly every time. As has been pointed out over and over again by me and others, the speed is ridiculously slow. The one trip ( https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=mood ... 16&start=0) I timed took 9 minutes to travel a mile after waiting for over five minutes at the platform for the late arriving streetcar. The slow as molasses 18 (without off-board payment or platforms) takes seven minutes to go a longer distance between Franklin and Nicollet and Blaisdell and Lake. The streetcar did not live up the the smooth ride offered by the Blue Line or Portland's MAX Light Rail. This tinker toy joke of a transit train was very jerky. Stops were very abrupt and not at all smooth and starting was almost as bad. The trains are also not very big. They're bigger and wider than the 40 foot Gilligs here but nowhere close to as nice as the buses I rode in Vancouver earlier in the same vacation. You could say I was not impressed.

This joke can come to our city at the low low cost of $200 million!!!

[Silophant]

Well, there goes our plan for building an exact copy of Portland's streetcar, I guess.