Nicollet-Central Streetcar

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
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Andrew_F
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Andrew_F » January 31st, 2013, 11:43 am

I think quarter-mile spacing is just right for streetcars. We do want to replace buses in the corridor. Like it or not, if we did half-mile spacing, pissy people would get their way and we'd have a legacy bus stopping every block...

I would also be interested in seeing what options there could be for roadway reconfiguration on Nicollet north of Lake to give the streetcars their own ROW. Streetcars are significantly narrower than LRVs, and that stretch of Nicollet is fairly wide-- I wonder if you could fit two northbound lanes, parking on the east side, and dedicated ROW for streetcar? I'm sure real traffic engineers could come up with something better, and I'd be very interested in seeing ideas.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mattaudio » January 31st, 2013, 11:49 am

What about center running streetcars in place of the center turn lane? Traffic lanes could bulb out to create space for island stations. No idea if this would work but it would be nice.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby helsinki » January 31st, 2013, 12:00 pm

I also highly doubt a real plan for a street car line will create any more momentum then a hi frequency bus route. The plan to open up Nic to Lake would involve Kmart selling the land to the city or Henn Co. however that is some pretty choice real estate and have to think others would want to get in on that. So who knows if the new owners would want to reopen the intersection.
A streetcar line creates leverage for the city in negotiations with current property owners (2 or 3, I understand). Exercising eminent domain to route a bus line is silly and somewhat villainous; the bus can just go around the obstacle. A tram can't (OK, yes, it is technically possible but so are moon colonies), and so the threat is treated with more respect because it is more likely to be carried out.

It also creates political will. Currently, there is no tangible purpose to re-connecting the street besides common sense and a belief that good things will come of it. K-Mart (ahem "Sears Holdings Corporation" of Hoffman Estates, Illinois) doesn't care about our shining urban future. With a clear plan, however, the future of which is jeopardized by the perceived intransigance of said Holding Corporation, the space for political action is made clearer. It is no longer the evil city of Minneapolis against the yeoman parking lot owner. Instead, it's a suburban Chicago mega corporation versus the good people seeking to quietly re-knit the urban fabric.

Again, the arguments fail with a bus because the bus can just go around.

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Andrew_F
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Andrew_F » January 31st, 2013, 12:03 pm

What about center running streetcars in place of the center turn lane? Traffic lanes could bulb out to create space for island stations. No idea if this would work but it would be nice.
That would be a good thing to look into. I imagine you would have to eliminate on-street parking where you have stations, but perhaps they could be placed at the ends of blocks, where you already have some parking eliminated, and where they tracks could use the intersection to come back together.

If it were to come to it, what would the effects be of eliminating or greatly reducing on-street parking, and how could that be mitigated with ramps? A few possible ramp locations: 44.954064, -93.278323; 44.955323,-93.279161; 44.962946,-93.278609. The second and third locations would be great, as they would have access to other major streets-- 26th, Blaisdell, and Franklin, so decreased auto accessibility on Nicollet wouldn't be an issue for reaching the ramps.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Viktor Vaughn » January 31st, 2013, 1:05 pm

I generally prefer rail. I tend to get motion-sickness on the bus so I really appreciate the smooth ride quality of rail. However, if there is not the political will to give rail its own right-of-way, I don't think we should spend the insane money necessary for streetcars.

If we don't have the funds or political will to build a streetcar long enough to actually replace a bus route, I don't think it should be built. The core portion of Nicollet/Central corridor could be upgraded with aBrt improvements without diminishing the outer areas of the bus lines. But just upgrading to streetcar from say, old St. Anthony to Franklin could actually make transit worse for the majority of trips which star or end north or south of that "starter segment".

The 10 is always packed, so the capacity improvements of a streetcar would be helpful, but the buses still run at 10 minute headways at peak. I'd rather the buses run every 5 minutes rather than a larger streetcar every 10 or 15.

Most of all, the entire high-frequency network badly needs upgrades. I'd rather see improvements made to all of these routes rather than blowing all the funds on one streetcar that may not even improve mobility.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby VAStationDude » January 31st, 2013, 1:08 pm

The vociferous anti-streetcar folks should consider two things.

First, a real plan for a streetcar on this route would create true momentum (not the idle chatter of the past 10 years) for re-connecting Nicollet at Lake Street.

Second, is there any evidence (studies, examples from personal experience, etc) that naysayers can point to illustrating how streetcars in mixed traffic don't work? Are people thinking of rinky-dink heritage trolleys? Because every modern tram I've been on works fine. It might seem counterintuitive to mix transportation modes in a shared space, but it actually works very well. Drivers actually seem to be more cautious when they know they don't have exclusive rights to the road.
Portland's streetcar runs at speeds slower or similar to heavily used, over burdened bus routes in Minneapolis/Saint Paul. The city of Portland's streetcar planning documents list an expected speed between 7 and 12 mph for outside lane running streetcars. Right now the 16 makes an 11 mile journey in about an hour. That's without POP or all door boarding found on the Portland streetcar. Relatively inexpensive improvements to bus service like POP, all door boarding, wider station spacing are all possible without expensive laying rail. In fact, a large baby BRT network could be implimented instead of a short tinker toy trolly line and provide actual mobility gains. Of course, baby BRT service would be susceptible to watering down, mainly through adding more stops than necessary, but I think that can be overcome.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby NickP » January 31st, 2013, 1:17 pm

VA- Could you clarify what you mean by Baby BRT? Thanks mate.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mplsjaromir » January 31st, 2013, 1:35 pm

VA- Could you clarify what you mean by Baby BRT? Thanks mate.
Probably BRT without exclusive ROW.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby VAStationDude » January 31st, 2013, 1:57 pm

Baby BRT aka aBRT aka arterial transit. Bus with proof of payment fare system (like lrt), 1/4 - 1/2 mile stop spacing, improved shelters with a shared ROW. It's currently under study by met council and could be implemented on Snelling and W7th by the the time the Green Line is operational

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby Chauncey87 » January 31st, 2013, 5:24 pm

then why spend billions on hiawatha and central LRT? it's not just because people prefer riding on a train, which they overwhelmingly do, it's the millions in associated development rail attracts. and then millions in tax collected because of said developments.

look at all the activity these two lines alone have generated. bring on the streetcar and let's grow this city.

The Blue/Green lines are not street car trolleys. They run on there own row and unless some confused driver turns onto the tracks will never be at the mercy of the heavy traffic around it. It is expected that the two lines we now have will bring in milions of associated development. A trolley does not have the capacity as the blue/green line, will be mixed in with traffic, and unless the trolley line completly replaces a bus route. You are going to still have to run those routes. It hurts to type so many things against trains, but if the capacity isnt much better then a bus. The route doesn't replace an entire bus line, and it still RUNS with traffic. What is the point? If everybody seems to really want to lay down some catenary poles? Why not start to think about trolley bus lines like Vancouver?

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby NickP » January 31st, 2013, 5:43 pm

Thanks VA! I know aBRT, just hadn't heard the babyBRT phrase before.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby PhilmerPhil » January 31st, 2013, 9:44 pm

I think part of what streetcars are trying to achieve is attracting more short, quick, hop-on type rides. Unfortunately, with prices at $2.25 during rush hour, this just can't compete with the alternatives. I'd almost rather see a drop in fares and/or significant discounts on 31-day passes before even improving current bus service, which for the most part works well. (For the record, you only start to see savings on a 31-day pass after about 38 rides, meaning that riding the bus twice every weekday only gives you a savings of about $5-6.)

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trkaiser
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby trkaiser » February 1st, 2013, 12:40 am

How is $2.25 expensive, especially with a transfer? And is the alternative walking or biking? I'm confused.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby PhilmerPhil » February 1st, 2013, 7:55 am

Example: My fiancé and I live near 18th and Nicollet. We want to go to Quang, on 27th. We share a car. In warmer months the choice is pretty clear for us--bike, or walk if we aren't in a rush. In the winter, the choice is also pretty clear--drive. There's no way we're gonna pay $4.50 combined when we could just spend about 50¢ in gas money.

My point is that for choice riders, it's not the most competitive option at times where it really should be--quick short distance trips. If the fare were closer to $1.50, I would use the bus much more often. This is something to keep in mind if we want to lure current motorists into taking transit.

UptownSport
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby UptownSport » February 2nd, 2013, 12:39 pm

I see what you mean, as much as I 'hop' busses / LRT for short trips, never really considered that it costs most people ...
I think streetcar would be great down Nicollet- it would match eat street character perfectly, and be sufficient for rest of line-
Could a trolley replace 18 with ANY practicality?

Perhaps Nicollet shops could 'spring' for trolley fares- Is any specific price carved in stone for rides?
(I'll note downtown zone; 50¢, Lindberg to Humphrey, free- also sporadic 'free transit days)

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby talindsay » February 3rd, 2013, 9:37 am

Example: My fiancé and I live near 18th and Nicollet. We want to go to Quang, on 27th. We share a car. In warmer months the choice is pretty clear for us--bike, or walk if we aren't in a rush. In the winter, the choice is also pretty clear--drive. There's no way we're gonna pay $4.50 combined when we could just spend about 50¢ in gas money.

My point is that for choice riders, it's not the most competitive option at times where it really should be--quick short distance trips. If the fare were closer to $1.50, I would use the bus much more often. This is something to keep in mind if we want to lure current motorists into taking transit.
You're not wrong, of course, but if you're living in an area as dense as where you live, you shouldn't be buying tickets at $2.25 a go anyway - a metropass is $60 a month and at that point it's a fixed cost that allows you to ride as much as you want. People who live in dense areas won't ever embrace the bus paying per-ride; but the metropass is cheap enough to be worth it so that you never have to think about what the ride costs. Cars have both a fixed cost (purchase, insurance) *AND* an ongoing cost (gas, parking); with the bus you can choose to pay *either* a fixed cost (metropass) *or* an ongoing cost.

helsinki
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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby helsinki » February 6th, 2013, 8:56 am

I think a lot of folks overestimate the cost of this line. The proposed length would be about 8.6 miles. At 20 - 40 million a mile (See Minnpost article a while back for this estimate: http://www.minnpost.com/cityscape/2011/ ... ntal-needs) the cost range is $164 million - $328 million.

This is a lot of money. It should not be compared, however, to the 'do-nothing' option that costs $0. This is silly, because the road is going to be resurfaced, the sidewalks and curbs repaired at some point, and buses will run up and down this length every day anyway. An honest accounting would add these costs together and compare them to the cost of building and running a streetcar (presumably with accompanying street reconstruction as with University).

I think streetcars would measure favorably in this comparison. Especially in the long term, because they have lower maintenance costs, lower fuel costs, and higher capacity than buses.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mattaudio » February 6th, 2013, 9:44 am

You're not wrong, of course, but if you're living in an area as dense as where you live, you shouldn't be buying tickets at $2.25 a go anyway - a metropass is $60 a month and at that point it's a fixed cost that allows you to ride as much as you want.
I wonder if there would be a simple way to reduce the cost, though. My wife and I are in a similar boat, although in a much less dense neighborhood than 18th/Nicollet. But we're still near two bus lines that go downtown and crosstown at least every half hour. A metropass does not work since we either work from home or have to drive to other meetings a few days a week, not to mention that we're both provided with "free" parking (I realize that's a whole different issue). But what about running errands, going to dinner, etc? There are a lot of trips where we could take the 46 or 14 but the reality is that we drive because $1.75x2x2, $7, is more expensive than our marginal cost to drive somewhere together and park on a street for free.

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby mattaudio » February 6th, 2013, 9:50 am

Regarding the streetcar, part of me wishes we were starting with Hennepin/University from Uptown to UMN, since such a project would not preclude a future cut and cover tunnel on Nicollet/Central from 29th St/Nicollet to 8th St SE/Hennepin/Central. :)

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Re: Nicollet-Central Corridor

Postby MNdible » February 6th, 2013, 12:33 pm

I think streetcars would measure favorably in this comparison. Especially in the long term, because they have lower maintenance costs, lower fuel costs, and higher capacity than buses.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but can anybody point to some real numbers regarding these claims?

I am dubious of the capacity question -- I don't see any reason why a streetcar would have higher capacity than an articulated bus.


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