Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Roads - Rails - Sidewalks - Bikeways
mplser
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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby mplser » March 18th, 2013, 10:07 pm

One way streets seem to be great at getting people into and out of downtown quickly.

it encourages faster driving.

Second, the one-ways seem to be bad for street-level retail.

Third, they create some preposterous spaghetti-junctions
My understanding is people want to do away with an admittedly efficient means of transport ostensibly because it's not good for window shopping.
That's a definite oversimplification and a one-sided way of thinking about it... one ways make it much harder for downtown residents to get around.

UptownSport
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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby UptownSport » March 18th, 2013, 11:28 pm

That's a definite oversimplification and a one-sided way of thinking about it... one ways make it much harder for downtown residents to get around.
Hold up here- Several residents (see below) prefer the one-way while on foot; self inclusive
(Except that nasty 4th with the sneaky bus lane)

(I took out text for brevity except Nick's foundation)
While I admit that it is comforting to know you can cross the street safely because you only have to pay attention in one direction ...
FWIW, I just finished my daily walk from 4th Street to Loring Park, and from a pedestrian perspective I actually like one ways a little bit. I realize there are traffic arguments for them (increased capacity) and against them (confusing) but I also hear all the time that it creates a hostile environment for pedestrians. I imagine it does in DTE where it's a moonscape for all kinds of reasons, but at least along Nicollet Mall, it's kinda nice not having to think for that extra half-second when crossing the street: Are there cars coming from the left? No. Next street on the right? No. You're already dodging panhandlers and street canvassers (UGH) and people looking at cellphones and girls swim teams from Owatonna wandering down from the Hyatt as is. Not that that it would be a gigantic mental burden to comprehend traffic if they were two way streets, but I just felt like saying that.
As long as the streets are kept to reasonable widths, restricting car speeds, one-ways are actually more ped/bike friendly. For example, peds only have to worry about cars coming from one direction.
As a pedestrian, I like the one ways because they are so much easier to jaywalk.
And I'd prefer a 'One-way' way of thinking about it ;)
Last edited by UptownSport on March 18th, 2013, 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby UptownSport » March 18th, 2013, 11:44 pm

And I get the idea this is just a thread to sabotage cars-

At least the Baron is honest about it, or more at: 'in touch' with his motives.
Stop worrying about facilitating the amount of cars that would cause major traffic jams and things will solve themselves. Convert most to 2-ways, get rid of lights at intersections with a small roundabouts to calm speeds and allow for free-flowing traffic in all directions. And hey, if it's still gridlocked, people in the suburbs have these great new transit choices to get in to downtown for work and sporting events (SWLRT, 35W line, Hiawatha, CC, Red Line BRT to Hiawatha, Northstar, SW buses, etc etc).

The side benefit is that the entirety of downtown will have fewer high-speed cars, more sidewalk width, easier street crossings, and much more that will removie even MORE barriers to people wanting to live there.
If I were king and had unlimited resources (and I'd argue we just about do) I don't think I could reduce the auto by appreciable rates with public transit- Our nation is vast, it's diversified, and has decades of being planned around the auto-
Not something I could reverse and still be benevolent

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby helsinki » March 19th, 2013, 3:46 am

And I get the idea this is just a thread to sabotage cars-
No. That's both (1) untrue, and (2) an oddly adversarial way of looking at the discussion.

Cars are an essential component of healthy streets. And parallel parking is oftentimes essential to a safe-feeling sidewalk.

A few posts back, you dismiss the idea of returning downtown streets to two-way because one-ways are efficient and the 'window-shopping' that would benefit from two-ways is somehow ridiculous.

This comment contains a number of assumptions that are likely specific to the way you view downtown. The 'efficiency' of the one-ways makes sense if the way you get into downtown is by car. Just because something is 'efficient' , however, doesn't mean that it is good in all respects; something has to be sacrificed for the sake of efficiency. Mass production is efficient, but it destroys craftsmanship. One-ways are efficient at moving cars into and out of downtown, but they limit and concentrate automobile use on the one-way street to a few hours a day. If this is all that matters, then yeah, sure, why not? If the efficiency of traffic flow is the supreme criterion, then this is a pointless discussion. The obvious rejoinder is that there are other criteria involved that are important. Fostering a pleasant streetscape, connecting customers with small businesses, and decreasing the severity of collisions, for starters (not to mention reducing the laughable number of ramps connecting Hiawatha Avenue to downtown).

These other criteria are important if you care about the health of downtown. It seems like you're rushing to judgment when you reduce the idea of street-level retail to the fanciful activity of 'window-shopping', and then discard it because the imperative of rush-hour traffic flow takes precedence. Of course, maybe street-level retail is fanciful and we should all just shop at Costco all the time for everything. But I think most people would agree that that's a bad idea.

Both of these assumptions (1. efficiency of moving cars is critical, and 2. street-level retail takes a back-seat to moving cars) reveal a view of downtown primarily as an office and entertainment district. A place to go to work and maybe see a game or a show. If downtown is to be successful, however, I think we have to broaden this view. Entertainment districts are rightfully criticized as failures (See: http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2013 ... ricts.html) and just having a "CBD" is what American downtowns effectively became post-WWII until now. And it demonstrably sucked. Downtown needs more people (residents), smaller stores, and a greater mix of uses; in short, variety. Some people think that returning some of our one-ways to two-ways might help in this transition.

Let's please not have some faux-brouhaha over a 'war on cars'.

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby TWA » March 19th, 2013, 8:14 am

http://www.uctc.net/access/41/access41_twoway.shtml

That link is to a snippet from a research paper about the effectiveness of two way versus one way street networks.

Apparently two way street networks are more efficient then some think. So says that article. The main drawback to a two way is the left turn at the intersection which slows down traffic flow. However many cities have signs that disallow certain turns between say 7-9 and 3-6 or so. Maybe that would be a workable solution?

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby MNdible » March 19th, 2013, 9:08 am

NO LEFT TURN FOR YOU!

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woofner
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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby woofner » March 19th, 2013, 10:06 am

http://www.uctc.net/access/41/access41_twoway.shtml

That link is to a snippet from a research paper about the effectiveness of two way versus one way street networks.

Apparently two way street networks are more efficient then some think.
The paper goes further, saying "two-way networks are often more efficient than one-way networks." Now that we have someone who has put a lot of time into studying the issue saying that one-way networks are not necessarily more efficient, can any assertion that one-ways are more efficient at least be accompanied with an acknowledgement that someone who knows a lot more than us about this doesn't agree?
"Who rescued whom!"

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 19th, 2013, 11:15 am

http://www.uctc.net/access/41/access41_twoway.shtml

That link is to a snippet from a research paper about the effectiveness of two way versus one way street networks.

Apparently two way street networks are more efficient then some think.
The paper goes further, saying "two-way networks are often more efficient than one-way networks." Now that we have someone who has put a lot of time into studying the issue saying that one-way networks are not necessarily more efficient, can any assertion that one-ways are more efficient at least be accompanied with an acknowledgement that someone who knows a lot more than us about this doesn't agree?
And at the same time acknowledge there is more to cities, life, etc than being merely 'efficient,' even if one would continue to hold the belief that one-ways are, on aggregate, more efficient?

My point was not honest to goodness an attempt to sabotage cars. It's an attempt to make all methods of transport equitable, from a cost per speed/choice perspective and in how they facilitate street life (and therefore living/working in a given are). Cars, delivery trucks, buses, etc all need to use the street for a city to function. I love cars - they're sexy, ultra convenient (if costly to own, maintain, and operate), and can be a way to express ones style/taste(/income). But building places solely around cars has been the detriment of many things in our country - our health, how equitable options for employment are for low-income folks, our cities' ability to function properly (as places to live, work, and be entertained), and our cities' finances as well. But thanks for trying to twist my words, UptownSport. And as for reversing decades of car-dependent planning, this has literally been decades. not centuries. If it took 3-5 decades to make the problem, let's not throw our hands up in the air and give up. It will undoubtedly take 3-5 decades to make it right again.

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby moda253 » March 19th, 2013, 12:20 pm

Look 1st avenue as it sits right now today is a friggen nightmare. I don't care if it's one way two way or any other way it sucks.

UptownSport
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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby UptownSport » March 19th, 2013, 6:20 pm

And I get the idea this is just a thread to sabotage cars-
No. That's both (1) untrue, and (2) an oddly adversarial way of looking at the discussion.
My intent isn't to simply oppose.

I do have the idea- Not untrue.
Writing my idea is 'oddly adversarial' is a personal attack.

Bottom line is I don't find arguments convincing enough to change a major city's street layout.

I saw areas in old cities where cars weren't allowed (or just didn't go?) and it was great.
Minneapolis isn't those cities and you can't get there from here.

mplser
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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby mplser » March 19th, 2013, 11:21 pm

And I get the idea this is just a thread to sabotage cars
I don't think so. I live downtown and while i only drive minimally, it would be much easier to drive around downtown without the one ways.

mplser
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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby mplser » March 19th, 2013, 11:25 pm

That's a definite oversimplification and a one-sided way of thinking about it... one ways make it much harder for downtown residents to get around.
Hold up here- Several residents (see below) prefer the one-way while on foot; self inclusive
(Except that nasty 4th with the sneaky bus lane)
WHile some pedestrians may prefer it, not everyone who lives downtown can walk everywhere. (a lot of us work elsewhere in the city) The one ways make catching a bus downtown very confusing, and (IMO) driving is harder with the one ways as well.

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby helsinki » March 20th, 2013, 3:39 am

And I get the idea this is just a thread to sabotage cars-
No. That's both (1) untrue, and (2) an oddly adversarial way of looking at the discussion.
My intent isn't to simply oppose.

I do have the idea- Not untrue.
Writing my idea is 'oddly adversarial' is a personal attack.

Bottom line is I don't find arguments convincing enough to change a major city's street layout.

I saw areas in old cities where cars weren't allowed (or just didn't go?) and it was great.
Minneapolis isn't those cities and you can't get there from here.
I disagree. A personal attack would be: "You are a malodorous rapscallion." Here, by contrast, I was merely objecting to your mischaracterization of the purpose of this thread as an attempt to "sabotage cars".

Unlike this little tit-for-tat, the linked article in ACCESS magazine seriously grapples with the issue of one-ways vs. two-ways. The author, a PhD in transportation engineering, writes how "two-way streets create higher levels of economic activity and improve the livability of downtown areas", how they are "safer than one-way streets", that visitors "prefer two-way street networks to one-way street networks because they are less confusing", and that "two-way street networks allow drivers to take the most direct routes from origin to destination". He elaborates on each of these contentions.

My point is not that all one-ways should be converted to two-ways. Rather, in a downtown where only 7 thoroughfares seem to be two-way (Washington Ave, 2nd St, 11th Ave S, 3rd Ave S, LaSalle, Hennepin, and 1st Ave), and at least 18 seem to be one-way, maybe we're putting too many eggs in the one-way basket. Especially when the benefits of that basket seem to be dubious at best.

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby min-chi-cbus » March 20th, 2013, 7:12 am

You have very mean words ("malodorous rapscallion")! Sounds like a dinosaur!!!

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby UptownSport » March 20th, 2013, 2:11 pm

I saw Breakfast at Tiffany's.
I saw Manhattan has one-ways. People did live there and Manhattan had great economic activity.

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby mister.shoes » March 20th, 2013, 2:19 pm

Manhattan also has 58% of the land area and 418% of the population of Minneapolis. You can't compare anything Manhattan has with what Minneapolis has as far as development/transportation. You know that as well as anyone on this board.
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UptownSport
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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby UptownSport » March 21st, 2013, 8:23 pm

What's the stats on Helsinki? (just pulled up a random city) it has one-ways.

web

Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby web » March 21st, 2013, 9:39 pm

Portland Oregon has many one ways in its downtown core and even its Light Rail since day one (late 80s) is on one way couplets

Also any city of size has one ways.....cmon

mplser
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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby mplser » March 21st, 2013, 10:42 pm

Again, I think the point of this thread is not that there shouldn't be any one-way streets in Minneapolis, it is talking about maybe restoring just a few of them back to two-way streets

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Re: Return Downtown Streets to Two-Way

Postby RailBaronYarr » March 22nd, 2013, 2:59 pm

^^ and reducing the number and width of lanes on the ones that remain. I'm ok with a one-way if the lanes are skinnier (encouraging slower driving) and fewer (opening up room for any of the following: dedicated bike lanes, dedicated transit lanes, wider sidewalks, more paid on-street parking).


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