Street, Road and Highway Projects

[PhilmerPhil]

It's really frustrating to see expensive "upgrades" like this sail by without any meaningful improvements to walka-/bikea-/livability. This project just seems to cement these streets' sole purpose as car sewers (sorry MNdible) for another 30 years. A couple thoughts:

-Should 35th and 36th Streets continue to be one-ways all the way to Chicago Ave? How do traffic demands differ on this side of 35W compared to the west side? It's interesting that one-way pairs are generally routed through poorer neighborhoods, and 35th/36th becoming two-way as soon as you get west of Nicollet highlights that point.
-Will the stoplights be re-timed? I drive on these streets pretty regularly, and to make all green lights from 35W to Chicago Ave, going 35-40 MPH is the way to do it! That needs to change.
-Like twincitizen, I'm guessing bumpouts won't be included, going against city policy: https://twitter.com/alexcecchini/status ... 7437363201
-These streets are on the city's bike master plan, although they're only listed to get sharrows, which the city doesn't seem to be implementing anymore. Would now be a good time to either remove a lane of parking or traffic for a bike lane--possibly protected?
-The article mentions that the traffic signals will be beefed up in size and will span over the street. I find this ugly, and out of scale for smaller residential streets. Having to increase the bulk of traffic signals is just a symptom of having a road that is designed to move cars fast.

[jw138]

Also, is this work taking into account how the traffic patterns will change once the 35W ramps at Lake/28th are complete?

[RailBaronYarr]

If there was ever a stretch of a Collector road that could be calmed and lose on-street parking, 36th west of Nicollet is it. I'd say 10% parking utilization between Lyndale and Nicollet is a vast overstatement, no matter the time of day. Right now that stretch is 44' curb to curb, with 10' parking lanes and 12' thru-lanes. It's a speedway.

The thing is, especially without a full reconstruction, we either get bike improvements or corner bumpouts. We could push for bumpouts to narrow the roadway and make pedestrians wanting to cross more visible, retaining parking between the corner and alley entrances. Or, we could put in 6' bike lanes + 4' of buffer+pole on each side, which would make biking way better, calm traffic, but not necessarily make crossing easier for pedestrians (plus, we'd lose parking). http://streetmix.net/alexcecchini/114/3 ... o-nicollet In this, we'd have the ability to connect the planned Blaisdell southbound bike lane in short order (not sure how to get this over to 1st given the one-way 36th east of Nicollet), which would link up further west to Bryant and the two-way facility

What do people think is the best approach? If the bike lanes are the better option, there's not much we need to push for. I personally want to see the city start following its own policies, and a bumpout would cost very little extra while not picking a parking fight anytime soon. Selfishly, a quality bike facility east of Lyndale would be really nice for my family.

EDIT: Phil suggested a good hybrid approach, extending the two-way cycle track on the south side between Calhoun and Dupont all the way across 35W. Keep one side of parking, allow for a curb extension on north side corners, and still get a protected bike facility all within the existing curb area. http://streetmix.net/alexcecchini/115/3 ... llet-remix And, just like 36th west of Dupont, no variances from MSAS standards.

[mattaudio]

I occasionally would park on 36th at Garfield to visit Ye Old Incremental Development Alliance Executive Director And Close Personal Friend. And never again, since I saw a parked car smashed on that block. 36th needs to be calmed.

For an example of why this current plan for 35th/36th is not ideal, look to the 2015 project to replace stoplights at 46th and Park/Portland/4th. Here's an example from Park. https://goo.gl/maps/dfskhcTVNe92 Park is over 50 feet wide curb-to-curb here, which is ridiculous given how low-volume Park is south of 46th. This could easily be 30 feet curb to curb or less: 2 11ft lanes, plus the northbound bike lane. Huge opportunity to increase safety for children walking to Field School. An opportunity lost. And look at all the concrete funnywork necessary to connect that corner house's sidewalk while maintaining ADA slope. FAIL.

[mattaudio]

36th is 44 feet curb-to-curb? I'll go check a few spots with Ye Old Bosch Laser Measuring Device after work to confirm. Here's what you could do with existing curbs. There's even space to carve out LTLs at important intersections within the existing curb-to-curb. I like this idea because it slows cars and makes pedestrian crossings easier. We need to focus on bike infrastructure that favors the pedestrian. http://streetmix.net/-/338421

[MNdible]

Not responding to any specific proposal here, and I'll certainly agree that there are a lot of improvements that can be made to this corridor, but...

In general, I think we're vastly overbuilding our crosstown bicycle infrastructure. There's just not that much demand for it, nor will there be even in a magical future when everybody bikes everywhere all the time.

[PhilmerPhil]

Really? Between the Midtown Greenway and the Creek, there is no good crosstown route. Don't get me started on the joke that is 40th St.

[BoredAgain]

Really? Between the Midtown Greenway and the Creek, there is no good crosstown route. Don't get me started on the joke that is 40th St.

I like the pedestrian/bike bridge across 35W, but they will be replacing that soon.

I expect the new bridge to be wider (good) but probably also have switch back ramps on at least one side because of increased bridge height requirements (absolutely terrible). Overall, I expect the replacement to be a net loss in functionality.

[LakeCharles]

Not responding to any specific proposal here, and I'll certainly agree that there are a lot of improvements that can be made to this corridor, but...

In general, I think we're vastly overbuilding our crosstown bicycle infrastructure. There's just not that much demand for it, nor will there be even in a magical future when everybody bikes everywhere all the time.

If in the future where everyone bikes there is no need for crosstown routes, then there also must not be any current demand for crosstown vehicle routes. So it's not any loss to remove lanes/parking for bike lanes.

[MNdible]

If in the future where everyone bikes there is no need for crosstown routes, then there also must not be any current demand for crosstown vehicle routes. So it's not any loss to remove lanes/parking for bike lanes.

I should have clarified that when I said "everybody bikes," I really meant that biking captures perhaps a 15% rideshare, which is truly fairy-dust land given the realities of the lives of non-20-something-male-urban-types. And while we may hate on 35W, keep in mind that a lot of the automobile crosstown traffic is collecting to that, freeing up capacity on the north-south streets for more frequent and more likely to be used bike facilities.

Really? Between the Midtown Greenway and the Creek, there is no good crosstown route. Don't get me started on the joke that is 40th St.

As near as I can tell, significant bike facilities are being planned on 31st, 36th, 38th, 40th, and 46th.

[mattaudio]

Significant bike facilities? In what world do you call it that. 40th is basically sharrows and flipping a few stop signs. 46th is table scraps - a few feet of pavement that would otherwise be unused once it already converts to 3 lanes. Not sure about the others, but I don't foresee any sort of protected or specialized bicycle route running crosstown. Significant = greenway, creek trail, etc.

[FISHMANPET]

31st is also just lanes in the street, so not significant there either.

[MNdible]

Fine, pick another word besides "significant."

I'm still kind of baffled by the hate on 40th Street. I bike it with some regularly, and have never had any beef with it. If your point of comparison is the Midtown Greenway, which due to its complete grade separated nature is probably the Cadillac bike facility in the whole country, then yes, everything else is going to come up short. But dedicated lanes on a not-very-busy street -- what's wrong with that?

[LakeCharles]

What counts as a dedicated lane? There are just painted symbols in the middle of the road that have a picture of a bike. And there are lots of stop signs.

Except between Nicollet and Lyndale, and those lanes are nice.

[PhilmerPhil]

As near as I can tell, significant bike facilities are being planned on 31st, 36th, 38th, 40th, and 46th.

31st St - Currently standard bike lanes only east of Bloomington. Standard lanes west of Bloomington are on the Bike Master Plan, but no immediate plans to implement.
36th St - Currently only the protected bikeway along Lakewood Cemetery. Standard lanes on 35th/36th are on the Bike Master Plan, but no immediate plans to implement.
38th St - No bike facility. Standard lanes are on the Bike Master Plan, but no immediate plans to implement.
40th St - This facility is indeed a joke. It's really hilly. There are too many stop signs, many of which are at side streets, at the bottom of hills, or both. The pavement quality is poor. Four way stop signs should be installed at 28th and 4th Aves. Those are just a few of my gripes, but I ride this area heavily, and generally choose 38th or even 41st over 40th.
42nd St - Currently standard lanes from Hiawatha to Cedar. Standard lanes west of Cedar are on the Bike Master Plan, but no immediate plans to implement.
46th St - Sounds like we're getting something here soon.

http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups ... 081436.pdf

[MNdible]

Except between Nicollet and Lyndale, and those lanes are nice.

I have a nagging feeling that we've had this entire conversation before. But, anyway, I should say that in general, I am using this segment west of 35W.

If I'm going further east than that, I probably am jogging north or south to either the Greenway or Minnehaha; not because the facilities are so much better (and they are), but because my ultimate destinations tend to be in those directions (usually the University area or Minnehaha Falls). Which is maybe just my personal biases, but may also underline (back to my very original point) that there just aren't that many destinations driving cross town trips.

[LakeCharles]

And I just happen to have opposite personal biases. I live just east of 35W and just south of 40th, so I happen to make lots of crosstown trips both ways, and 40th is never my choice going east.

[PhilmerPhil]

Right, the bike lanes on the west side of 35W work great! It's the bike boulevard segment to the east that people complain about.

While we're sharing personal biases, I live near 35th and Lyndale and work near 38th and Hiawatha--what are my options to get to work? I manage with 36th or 38th Streets, but sure would appreciate something that's actually marked for bikes. As for other destinations? Seward Coop, Northbound, 38th St Station, Riverview Theater, Marla's, Baker's Wife, Powderhorn Park, Ted Cook's, etc. What are the best ways for families in SOUP to access these destinations? (Or for that matter, residents of Howe/Standish/Powederhorn/etc. to access destinations in SOUP?)

[MNdible]

To go back to my original comment, I was not saying that where we're at now is adequate. I'm saying that to imagine that in our near future, we're going to have "significant" bike facilities on all of the crosstown routes you've listed above would be overkill. Even if some of the routes do have hills and stop signs.

[VAStationDude]

When I ride east west across Minneapolis I generally choose 40th. I have not found the hills to be too bad despite riding a steel frame road bike with 32 spoke touring wheels. There is room for improvement but compared to busy 38th it's heaven. I like riding east of 35 more than west because traffic is so light.

I agree with mndible. We should strive to make better north South routes connecting to the green way ave downtown a bigger priority than another east west route.