Hennepin & Lyndale Bottleneck Project

[seanrichardryan]

There are 4 historic buildings between Franklin and and vineland, all of which wouldn't be affected by any proposal. Bull.

[twincitizen]

Let's talk jurisdiction: Obviously the flyovers themselves are MNDOT property, as is the space over the tunnel. Hennepin Ave is (surprisingly) just a regular city street. Lyndale south of Franklin is a county road. What about the at-grade bottleneck in front of the Walker (Douglas to Vineland) that everyone hates the most? Are those all just city-streets? Or are they MNDOT since they lie on top of the tunnel roof?

[mattaudio]

It doesn't zoom in far enough for me to pick out the individual ramps, but this MinnPost page shows that the bridges date to 1965 -- so yeah, they'll officially turn 50 years old next year.

It's useful to remember that every single one of these structurally deficient bridges could have been remedied for less than the cost of the St. Croix Bridge. And we'd still have $150 million left over.

[David Greene]

It's useful to remember that every single one of these structurally deficient bridges could have been remedied for less than the cost of the St. Croix Bridge. And we'd still have $150 million left over.

That is a really excellent point. This would be a great example to use of the opportunity cost of wasted transportation dollars. Everyone knows the bottleneck sucks but most people don't make the connection between it and what we're wasting on pitiful traffic counts over the St. Croix.

[Mdcastle]

I've heard "we could fix all our structurally deficient bridges for what we're spending on the St. Croix Crossing" before, with no real solid numbers to back them. Do those numbers use Minnesota's 55% share of the current cost estimates ($580-$676.9 millions) and what number are they using as a cost to fix the bridges?

[robotlollipop]

It's useful to remember that every single one of these structurally deficient bridges could have been remedied for less than the cost of the St. Croix Bridge. And we'd still have $150 million left over.

Valid point, but if we followed your plan we'd no longer be getting the next Golden Gate Bridge. So...

[PhilmerPhil]

Preliminary Concept Layout: http://www.hennepinlyndaleproject.com/m ... ch2014.pdf
(Beware, large document.)

[bubzki2]

I at least like that they added refuge islands crossing Oak Grove. Better than nothing, I guess. I can't believe they're leaving that island bus stop, though.

[MNdible]

It appears that they're at least improving the bus stop. Currently, there's three lanes of thru traffic on southbound Lyndale, in addition to a bus pull-off. It appears that now the bus will stop in the traffic lane, which should mean that the island will be able to be enlarged somewhat.

Also, how in the world is that left turn from southbound Hennepin onto Oak Grove supposed to work?

Last thought -- I'd love to see the Walker provide a boulevard strip along their property. That would make that stretch much more pleasant for pedestrians.

[seanrichardryan]

WHY are there still three lanes heading NB from Franklin on Hennepin?? Not needed, never was. (it is not currently striped as a lane, it's more of a shoulder that people sometimes drive on to avoid potholes.) They could add an actual median, a left turn at Franklin, or even expand the sidewalks if those 11-13' are dropped.

[mulad]

On the complete rebuilding side of things, here's one idea that was submitted by Joe Polacek in response to a recent streets.mn article. I believe he's been invited to write up a post, but I'm not sure when that might happen.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzYOAD2 ... 5bFAw/edit

[David Greene]

On the complete rebuilding side of things, here's one idea that was submitted by Joe Polacek in response to a recent streets.mn article. I believe he's been invited to write up a post, but I'm not sure when that might happen.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzYOAD2 ... 5bFAw/edit

One problem I see with that plan is that the current flyover from WB I-94 to SB Hennepin serves as a wait queue for the light at Franklin. Sometimes the line extends almost to the freeway exit point. Shortening that significantly while requiring cars to queue at the proposed Hennepin intersection (and again at Franklin) is going to cause problems.

[seanrichardryan]

Also, are Douglas & Lincoln actual streets or just squared off on ramps for Hennepin? There are some circulation issues there for developing the property. It would be interesting to see what kind of tax revenue could be captured from the newly available land.

[seanrichardryan]

Woops, I meant Summit & Lincoln

[mister.shoes]

On the complete rebuilding side of things, here's one idea that was submitted by Joe Polacek in response to a recent streets.mn article. I believe he's been invited to write up a post, but I'm not sure when that might happen.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzYOAD2 ... 5bFAw/edit

One problem I see with that plan is that the current flyover from WB I-94 to SB Hennepin serves as a wait queue for the light at Franklin. Sometimes the line extends almost to the freeway exit point. Shortening that significantly while requiring cars to queue at the proposed Hennepin intersection (and again at Franklin) is going to cause problems.

I imagine that a good number of the cars queuing at Franklin are doing so only because that's the first intersection south of the exit ramp and is the only way to get at anything west of Hennepin between Vineland (no left at Groveland!) and Franklin. Something like this guy's plan would allow drivers to Exit the freeway and immediately disperse at any one of Groveland (maybe? tough to tell), Douglas, Summit, or Lincoln in addition to Franklin.

I love this idea. That 45ish° view looking SW down Hennenpin with the triangular building in the crook of the junction makes me all giddy inside. It's the type of view that screams "this is the crossroads of a world-class city." And despite the continued presence of overpasses, those new buildings could be thoughtfully designed such that "street level" is the second floor as the on/off ramps pass between. Yes, cars will be thinking "this is the way to/from the freeway" but really good street design—starting with the overpasses as they cross Lyndale—can alter that mentality.

All-in-all, this is just a gorgeous way of illustrating how much high-value land is wasted by those stupid flyovers. Hooray, Joe Polacek!

[David Greene]

On the complete rebuilding side of things, here's one idea that was submitted by Joe Polacek in response to a recent streets.mn article. I believe he's been invited to write up a post, but I'm not sure when that might happen.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzYOAD2 ... 5bFAw/edit

One problem I see with that plan is that the current flyover from WB I-94 to SB Hennepin serves as a wait queue for the light at Franklin. Sometimes the line extends almost to the freeway exit point. Shortening that significantly while requiring cars to queue at the proposed Hennepin intersection (and again at Franklin) is going to cause problems.

I imagine that a good number of the cars queuing at Franklin are doing so only because that's the first intersection south of the exit ramp and is the only way to get at anything west of Hennepin between Vineland (no left at Groveland!) and Franklin. Something like this guy's plan would allow drivers to Exit the freeway and immediately disperse at any one of Groveland (maybe? tough to tell), Douglas, Summit, or Lincoln in addition to Franklin.

In my experience commuting this every day, the overwhelming majority of vehicles continue south on Hennepin. The backups are due not only to the freeway traffic but also everyone exiting downtown to get to southwest Minneapolis and beyond.

Still, I agree that it's a visually attractive plan. I'm just not sure it's functional.

[froggie]

The fatal flaw in this guys proposal is his westbound ramp off of I-94 (that ties into Summit Ave). There just isn't enough room to have it bridge over Lyndale then meet Hennepin at-grade. The way he designed it would require a minimum 10% downhill grade from the Lyndale bridge down to Hennepin on that ramp. The eastbound on-ramp to 94 (that comes from Lincoln Ave) works a little better because the angle of Hennepin offers more room, but that one would still either require a 7% uphill grade, or cut off access to his extended Aldrich Ave. There DEFINITELY isn't enough room to have the eastbound ramp bridge over Aldrich Ave.

The only way his configuration would work is if the ramps meet Lyndale at-grade. In which case, it's fundamentally similar to my own proposal except that he keeps Hennepin and Lyndale completely separate. And my proposal works better in that regard because it doesn't require turn lanes or multi-phase signals.

[mulad]

Here's Joe's writeup: https://streets.mn/2014/04/03/turn/

[mister.shoes]

Froggie, just so I can wrap my head around the idea of a 10% grade, are you able to look up or measure the grade on Franklin between Aldrich and Lyndale or between Lyndale and Garfield?

[froggie]

Not directly. I can make inferences based on topographic data, but I don't have the city's exact street elevation data.

But for comparison, the steepest grade LRT can reasonably run on is 6%. Trucks start having serious issues above 4%. In non-mountainous areas, the high end of acceptable for new design (barring topographic concerns) is in the 4-6% range.