26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

[twincitizen]

Again, I will challenge the assumtion that having these as one-way streets is significantly faster. From Hennepin to Cedar (the extent of one-wayification) is only 2.5 miles. The majority of users are not likely going the entire distance. Hennepin to Chicago is 1.75 miles, Lyndale to Chicago is 1.5 miles. Nicollet to Cedar is 1.5 miles.

On top of that, for most drivers, these streets only comprise one leg of a larger trip. How much time savings are we really talking about here? Let's say that you currently average 20MPH for the 2 mile leg on 26th/28th, for a total of 6 minutes. How greatly do you think converting to two-way streets would really impact that? You're really not moving very fast in the first place. Is two extra minutes in the morning and two extra minutes in the evening going to ruin your life? It's undeniable that these streets (especially the 4-lane portions through Phillips) have negative impacts on the surrounding communities, particularly adjacent properties. They contain several of the most dangerous intersections for cyclists and pedestrians in the entire city.

Again, we are making improvements to bus service on Lake Street in the short term and implementing a Midtown rail option that will be FASTER THAN DRIVING.

I know I haven't convinced anyone with this argument. Urbanists have made up their minds, and the opposition has made up theirs. I simply ask you to consider what you'd actually be "losing" by converting these streets to two-ways. It's unfair to assume that they'd be hopelessly gridlocked without even considering the numbers.

[talindsay]

You're probably right, especially if they keep a light timing that prioritizes through traffic on these streets. They could certainly run a study and answer this definitively for common trips. Compared to other streets in the immediate area these *are* faster, but perhaps they could keep some of that benefit with good timing as two-ways. Still, I think it makes sense to wait until Midtown is done, because that won't be a long wait anyway.

[Tcmetro]

I think it will be slower, especially because there likely won't be enough room for protected lefts. With heavy traffic flowing in both directions and left turns taking place in a general lane there will definitely be much slower traffic, and I would think more accidents.

[Wedgeguy]

I would say that you are correct with the accident assumption. I think that we for get that we have hospitals and firehouses along these streets so it does help emergency vehicles with having only one direction of traffic to fight. I have to agree that stop and go traffic and turn lanes do promote traffic sitting and causing pollution. As one that lives in between 26th and 28th and walk over both several times a week. I don't find there to be a pollution problem from higher traffic, that would not be offset by similar pollution from cars having to wait thru arrows or for cross traffic and cause pockets of pollution to form at corners. I've been in this city for nearly 30 years now. I've seen traffic pattern change over the years, Some for the good, but a lot for the bad.

I'm not sure if Lyndalizing 26th and 28th would work. With Abbot there in the middle I don't think you would be dealing with the same traffic counts. Most north/south traffic goes over to 35W so that helps relieve traffic congestion on Lyndale. 26th/28th are too far away from 94 or the Crosstown to help take any of the east/west traffic there. I would even say that traffic going on these street help lessen congestion on 94 as those going east or west can stay away from the traffic crawl on I 94.

If you can show me solid traffic counts that prove that 26th/28th traffic levels are comparable to Lyndale when it was 4 lane I'll give some ground. But, as one who has lived in this area and driven the above mentioned streets for 20 years. I can tell you just from sight that the traffic counts will not be very similar. My guess is that 26/28th carry about twice the car counts as Lyndale did before bringing it down to 3.You will have to show me number from other area that had similar counts and that did not have an adverse traffic flow once they were switched. Abbott continues to grow, and a majority of people that are heading to the hospital are not taking public transportation there. Many people like my parent from outstate Mn have to drive to get to see their doctors at the hospital. They, like a lot have to take local street to get to the hospital from what ever direction they are coming from. These my friends are what traffic engineers look at when they decide how to deal with current and future traffic patterns. It ain't black and white, it is a multiple shades of gray that changes as it goes though various neighborhoods, commerce areas, and other institutions like Abbott, Wells Fargo Mortgage, the south end of Eat street. I can debate all you want, and I'll find you theories that will work for both side of each case. Just because you don't like one way streets is not a reason for the city, county or state to get rid of them. They like concrete numbers to back up their decisions, before they will do such a thing. They will look at accident rates, pollution levels, and other factors before they do anything to change these roads!

[orangevening]

I take a earlier comment back. Bike lanes will be needed here because when the midtown lrv construction starts they are closing the bike trail. At least it will remind me how much I appreciate the Greenway

[woofner]

Regarding crashes, can you guys cite a single 4-to-3 conversion where the crash rate has gone up? Do you understand why a 3 lane configuration is typically so much safer than a 4 lane configuration?

There is certainly room along the entire corridor for protected left turns. In some places, mostly between Lyndale & Hennepin and Stevens & 35W, some or all parking will need to be removed to fit it, so it will need to be decided whether turn volumes justify that.

Induced demand has probably generated more traffic on these streets than almost any other in the city (probably only Park/Portland and Emerson/Fremont can top them). When their design is improved to actually respond to its context and accommodate nonmotorized users, there will probably be some motorists who switch to 31st, Lake, 24th, and Franklin (note that they have 4 streets to choose to switch to, making the impact on any given street negligible). But the majority of traffic will either change the timing of their trip, choose a different destination, or not make the trip at all (or switch to a different mode).

Also, 3 lane streets work great for emergency vehicles because they have a built-in passing lane. But I'll note the the systems effect of discouraging unnecessary car trips has a much greater public health benefit than either facilitating the conduct of emergency vehicles or infrastructure-based crash reduction on individual corridors.

[UptownSport]

What you're doing is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

It's clear that the only reason you want to make changes is to "disincentivize driving" or "Traffic Calming", both used here as code words for making it tougher to drive.

Autos have given us huge amounts of freedom and immense flexibility, the very reason there are some congestion problems is due to the auto's immense success!

No one outside a few people here are willing to cripple people's freedom just for the sake of some idealism, arrogance that somehow you are best suited to deciding how people are going to get around.

There might be livestream trainsets where your fantasies can get instant gratification. My suggestion is to get a train set and create your own two way utopia; there'd be none of those pesky people who'd argue with your brilliance.

[ECtransplant]

Driving is a problem. It's has large negative externalities. Discouraging driving by making it relatively more difficult and the alternatives relatively easier is a solution to that problem

[UptownSport]

Alternatives?

I do think that charging a 'tonnage' on autos (ala commercial vehicles) would be helpful. Lighter cars take less space on roads, are more efficient and by definition take less to manufacture. Less mass causes less damage to roads and objects they strike.
It's difficult to argue that you need an Excursion to commute.

I'd also bet this wouldn't have a snowball's chance, and would also put me on the same 'crazy train' as my 'friends' here.

[Wedgeguy]

Uptowner Thanks for putting me on the "Crazy Train" for knowing it will not happen and why!! LOL Thanks

Woofer the accident rate I was referring to was for 3 lanes vs one ways making left turns. Hard to have someone hit you when that are not coming at you. I have no problems having turning lanes added when there is ROW. I much prefer that.
You say that lanes can be reduced to 3 lanes, but then you take out parking in order to do that. Not everyone will be happy with that. You might, but a lot of others will frown on that idea. But as Marie Antoinette said, " Let them park else where, or was it eat cake"" Either way you are stepping on residence toes who park there.
You seem to forget that the biggest traffic generators for 26th and 28th are two institutions that are not going anywhere. The Abbott complex continues to grow, unless Well Fargo Mortgage gets moved downtown they will provide traffic. Those will always be job centers that create the use of cars. BTW 24th does not go over the freeway so not a good example for east/west non expressways. People take 26th and 28th so they don't have to use Lake Street. Which at this point at rush hour is pretty full as it is.

Discouraging driving only works when you have a superior transportation system. Ours is fair at best.

[pannierpacker]

Wow, I won't even go into all the assumptions you're making there, but I will note that we need decent transit options running across the city before we take away decent auto options.

Except those auto options haven't existed since the city retimed the lights.

I now actively avoid 26th because it's so slow. It's actually faster to go further into downtown and down LaSalle during rush hour.

I actually don't mind driving on 26th street. I occasionally take it from either Hiawatha or Portland all the way down to Nicollet. I am usually coming from Roseville or Falcon Heights and on my way to Vertical Endeavors or to listen to a band play somewhere on Eat Street. I make this trip once a month or less. As a suburbanite who despises freeways, It's nice to have 26th or 28th because they are alternatives to I-94 and MN-62 for getting across south Minneapolis. Something doesn't feel quite right about driving on a street that has banned pedestrians. 26th might not be perfect for pedestrians but it's better than a freeway. Therefore, by driving on 26th, I feel like I'm taking a step in the right direction.

Driving on Lake Street isn't horrible either. Now that they've rebuilt all of the signals so that they only change when they sense cars or pedestrians, Lake gets a lot of green time, even during rush hour.

[woofner]

Woofer the accident rate I was referring to was for 3 lanes vs one ways making left turns. Hard to have someone hit you when that are not coming at you. I have no problems having turning lanes added when there is ROW. I much prefer that.

MnDot issues some reports that will help you familiarize yourself with the landscape of car crashes:

https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/ots/report ... facts.aspx

I'll summarize since you won't read it: left turn crashes with oncoming traffic is one of the least common crash types. Sideswipe crashes, which are prevalent on multi-lane one-ways, are more than twice as common. Sideswipe crashes are nearly unknown on three-lane two-ways.

You seem to forget that the biggest traffic generators for 26th and 28th are two institutions that are not going anywhere.

I agree that these are major trip generators, but they do not seem to be greater than the peak effect. If Abbott and Wells Fargo were driving the traffic on this street, I would expect to see much higher counts for traffic in their direction in the AM peak and away from them in the PM peak. Instead traffic is uniformly greater in the PM peak, whether traveling to or away from them, suggesting that the greatest users of these streets are those seeking shortcuts at rush hour. I guess I need to repeat that this is heavily influenced by induced demand.

You say that lanes can be reduced to 3 lanes, but then you take out parking in order to do that.

If you're going to argue with me, please try to pay more attention to what I write. In a few locations, parking may have to be removed to accommodate turn lanes. In the vast majority of the corridor, existing parking will be maintained. This makes sense when you think about it (as I expect you didn't) - most of the corridor is currently 3 lanes with parking, so the lanes themselves don't need to change, just their directionality does. There may be some areas where a continuous center left turn lane isn't needed, so parking may be added.

There might be livestream trainsets where your fantasies can get instant gratification. My suggestion is to get a train set and create your own two way utopia; there'd be none of those pesky people who'd argue with your brilliance.

Speaking of meetings, have you ever asked anyone who lives near 26th & 28th if they think these roadways make them more free? The people I've talked to find them obnoxious, are familiar with the destruction they bring, and prefer two-way. I'm not saying twowayfication would be popular citywide but I'm certain it would be at the neighborhood scale.

[Wedgeguy]

I live in between the 2 so I'd say I know what I'm talking about. I find neither offensive. I prefer them as is. Maybe sections of the roads east of Nicolett [sic] you have plenty of space for turn lanes and parking. But in my neighborhood, Uptown, the ROW with parking is 3 lanes so you will take away parking.
Yes I'll take 28th or 26th over Lake Street when ever it is convenient. Living in the 2700 block that would be a majority of the time. Yes a majority of us drivers find it less stressful than Lake Street.
It is easier to move to a Cal de Sac than to get a road changed if you don't like traffic!

[kiliff75]

I drive on 26th quite a bit to zip across south minneapolis or avoid I94, the lights are timed quite well between Portland and Hennepin (except for lyndale) and its usually not too congested in the mornings. I'd favor leaving it as it is

[David Greene]

I also live in the 2700 block and I find both not just obnoxious but dangerous as well. If you're not at a signalized intersection it can be a bit of a challenge to cross, particularly 26th with the hills on the west side blocking views. It gets even worse down by the hospital.

[Wedgeguy]

I also live in the 2700 block and I find both not just obnoxious but dangerous as well. If you're not at a signalized intersection it can be a bit of a challenge to cross, particularly 26th with the hills on the west side blocking views. It gets even worse down by the hospital.

You apparently don't live in my neighborhood then. As I rarely have to deal with much of any traffic that I can't handle. With the number of lights on both 26th and 28th they allow plenty of dead time for you to cross the street with out getting run over. I walk both direction many times a week. I'm aware that I live in a bustling city and not sleepy Mayberry. I'll say that getting across Hennepin and Lyndale can be a challenge sometimes. But I've never had much of a problem with 26th and 28th. Sometimes I have to wait 1 or 2 minutes while all the cars that were stopped at the light make their way thru. But then I have clear sailing across the street.

[David Greene]

You apparently don't live in my neighborhood then.

Yep, that's right. I also apprently have no right to talk about *my own* experiences.

[Wedgeguy]

You make it sound much worse than it is.. You would have the same problems with a two way street, but now you would have to worry who is coming from both directions and not just one!

[ECtransplant]

Part of living in a city is pedestrians get priority over autos

[Wedgeguy]

That is what we are taught in driver's ed, but that is not what happening in the real world, 26th or a side street. I will never assume a car will stop for me if I'm in the crosswalk and they are less than a half a block away. They could be texting and not paying attention. Bicyclist, cars, trucks should all yield to a pedestrian in a cross walk, but a majority of the time they don't, any of the above.