26th / 28th Streets in South Minneapolis

[MNdible]

I'm fine with throttling down these streets to slow traffic, but again, they're still serving a function of getting people across town. If everybody's advice was followed, there'd be no differentiation between 26th and 25th or 27th, and getting crosstown becomes a nasty schlep.

[LyndaleHoosier]

I think if serious consideration is given to converting 26/28th Steerts to two way then the city needs to think about converting some of the N/S aves to one-way.

I live on Bryant between 29th (Greenway) and 28th and say it is absolutely terrible to drive down Bryant when another car is coming toward you with bike traffic in the mix. The avenues between Hennepin and Lyndale are very narrow and are tough in the summer, let alone when snow begins to fly.

I realize that two-way traffic is usually more calm, but I think there is also a balance of safety of peds, bikers, and drivers on these very narrow streets of Lowry Hill East (Wedge).

[woofner]

I'm fine with throttling down these streets to slow traffic, but again, they're still serving a function of getting people across town. If everybody's advice was followed, there'd be no differentiation between 26th and 25th or 27th, and getting crosstown becomes a nasty schlep.

What is the threshold for "nasty"? A 15 minute drive between Hennepin & Cedar? Not being able to pass the slowpokes who insist on driving 30mph? Having to *gasp* wait for more than one cycle to get through an intersection? Sand worms?

Did you ever think that the exhaust that you emit when crossing town in a car makes it a nasty schlep for everyone else?

[David Greene]

I'm fine with throttling down these streets to slow traffic, but again, they're still serving a function of getting people across town. If everybody's advice was followed, there'd be no differentiation between 26th and 25th or 27th

Exactly! That is the whole point of my suggestions at least. 26th and 28th are still a bit wider than 25th and 27th, however.

Franklin, 24th and a reconfigured 26th and 28th provides plenty of brandwidth to get cars across town. Most people should probably be taking the freeway anyway.

[David Greene]

I think if serious consideration is given to converting 26/28th Steerts to two way then the city needs to think about converting some of the N/S aves to one-way.

I live on Bryant between 29th (Greenway) and 28th and say it is absolutely terrible to drive down Bryant when another car is coming toward you with bike traffic in the mix. The avenues between Hennepin and Lyndale are very narrow and are tough in the summer, let alone when snow begins to fly.

I realize that two-way traffic is usually more calm, but I think there is also a balance of safety of peds, bikers, and drivers on these very narrow streets of Lowry Hill East (Wedge).

No way to more N/S one ways. We got rid of then on Emerson/Dupont a while back according to the neighbors. If you're driving long distances down Bryant or any other N/S street in the Wedge and feeling frustrated, you're doing it wrong. There are major arterials literally four blocks away.

EDIT: What woofner said. I think it is really hard for someone not living in the Wedge/Whittier to understand just how nasty these streets are to the neighborhoods. There are all kinds of issues with speed, sightlines, parking and general traffic flow. There's a reason bikers not only bike on the sidewalk, they often bike in the street going the wrong direction. Not to mention the cars that go the wrong way.

These streets just make absolutely no sense as one-way pairs in the Wedge and Whittier given the residential areas they pass through. There is no commercial activity on them.

[PhilmerPhil]

David, just curious, but why do you keep referring only to the Wedge and Whittier as the parts of 26th/28th that are in desperate need of change, when just across 35W in some of the city's most disadvantaged neighborhoods, the streets are an even bigger problem for the neighborhoods?

[Nathan]

So much of this is perceived anxiety of a nonexistent problem... people form a lot of traffic on 26th and 28th because they go there on purpose. I live near Lynn/Franklin, and if I need to get to midtown or wherever East of 35 I drive down to 28th, because it will be faster even though it's further south/out of the way. Reciprocally people living south of lake East of 35w probably drive the extra blocks north to use 26th to get into Whittier and Uptown because it will be faster. HOWEVER, if both streets are two ways, I would no longer use 28th, I would use 26th because that is less distance and now faster, and they would use 28th for the same reason. We've both now traveled fewer miles in the long run and completely cancelled each other out. We will all now more evenly disperse ourselves to more better suit our needs rather than flock to specific roads (car sewer) that create hazardous environments for all.

I mean when you think about a shower head with adjustable settings (cue silly analogy) no matter what setting you're on, the same amount of water is coming out, one way is the calm and evenly dispersed rain setting, and the other extreme is the harsh and forceful massage setting where it all comes out three holes. They both accommodate all the flow, one setting is more appropriate to put your face under though.

[David Greene]

David, just curious, but why do you keep referring only to the Wedge and Whittier as the parts of 26th/28th that are in desperate need of change, when just across 35W in some of the city's most disadvantaged neighborhoods, the streets are an even bigger problem for the neighborhoods?

It's all in needs of change, *especially* the part east of 35-W.

I'm focusing comments where I live because it's what I'm most familiar with. I'm very happy to support whatever the communities east of 35-W want to see!

The only funded part of the project is east of 35-W so indeed that is the most pressing area at the moment.

It looks like lots of feedback was given at the open house tonight.

[froggie]

Something not mentioned in the discussion is that there are three very large traffic generators along 26th/28th in Phillips: Abbott Northwestern, Childrens Hospital, and Wells Fargo Home Mortgage. These three generate a fair bit of east-west traffic…enough to where the 26th/28th pair actually has more traffic between Nicollet and Cedar than Lake Street. Also, 26th and 28th individually carry more traffic than every north-south street they cross between Nicollet and Cedar. Because of this, David's idea of replacing stoplights with stop signs along that stretch is DOA.

West of Nicollet, and especially west of Lyndale, is where you could potentially eliminate stoplights.

[mattaudio]

As someone intimately familiar with the traffic patterns generated by one of those large institutions, I can say the pain points aren't the throughput capacity of 26th/28th but rather the intersection performance. And there's actually a lot of traffic trying to get between the two streets to head east or west, making things worse. I can imagine a situation where the streets are two-way, but with two lanes in one direction between Nicollet and Park, and it would work even better. I'll explain more later.

[froggie]

3-lane/2-way doesn't leave enough room for a 2-way cycle track and on-street parking, plus the choke-point on 26th between Clinton and Stevens doesn't even allow for such even without on-street parking. I'm still partial to the concept of keeping both streets one-way between Nicollet and Cedar.

As for traffic volumes, here's a color-coded map showing them:

[mattaudio]

Are the 26th/28th bridges going to get replaced as part of the Lake Street Access project? I assumed all bridges from 42nd to Franklin would get replaced to Crosstown Commons spec.

I realize this is not on the radar right now, but I still think "splitting the diamond" across 28th and Lake would work well. It would eliminate the perceived need for the weaving flyover bridge northbound to 28th. It would also help make 31st a street that is stronger for crosstown trips that avoid the freeway, and 26th could serve this same function further north.

[Minneapolisite]

Just looked at Google Maps for how long it take to go down 28th from Hennepin to Hiawatha by bike: 15 minutes. By car: 13-14. Or if you go north to the highway for the quickest route it's 11. So if it's really such a big deal for motorists to speed as fast as possible to get from one side to the other then the highway is the only option that significantly cuts down travel time. As far as 28th this simply proves more people should ride a bike: with a minute or two difference it 'll seem just as fast and they won't be travelling at dangerously high speeds that are killing our own neighbors, only to end up going what is basically the same speed as a bike. Convert the streets to two-way with calming measures for 25 MPH traffic to get waves of green signals and it won't be nearly the threat it is today to other users of this residential street and with higher priority given to traffic on this street it'll allow cars to move similar as fast (or slow rather) as they do today. Except, again, without killing and maiming so many people. And let's not forget, a couple blocks south the 21 is a high frequency bus route.

[RailBaronYarr]

I frequently hear that 26th/28th are a great way for people to "get across town," and additionally that WF/Abbott/etc are major traffic generators. But let's be serious and say the type of people who would use these pairs to get across town could use them, at most (ie making from the Lake of the Isles to the River), for 4.5 miles - just 3 if you cut it off at Hiawatha Ave. How much longer is the drive going to be without the capacity, priority at cross-streets (long light timing or free-flow while cross streets have stop signs), etc? 18 minutes at 10 mph avg vs 9 minutes at 20 mph avg to go 3 miles. Will it matter? Is Minneapolis a better city because we save those 5-14,000 cars between 5 and 10 minutes? How many people live within 100' of these streets from Hennepin to Hiawatha? If Minneapolis is serious about 1) making the city more attractive to live in, 2) adding residents as a result, particularly near transit corridors, 3) implementing bike facilities and increasing mode share, then something has to give in terms of auto capacity and speed.

Also, some data: I boiled the big job generator discussed above to an area bounded by I-35W on the west, 10th Ave on the east, 25th on the north, and 28th on the south. I used the census mapping tool and found 21% of the ~14,000 people working there have Minneapolis home zip codes. Another 2% live in Richfield. I would bet a solid portion of these people are drivers on 26th and 28th when biking or taking the bus would be viable alternatives otherwise (or, heaven forbid, choosing to live within walking distance of the place).

Anecdata: a friend of mine lives in Loring Park (formerly in Blue) and works at Abbott, but drives. It's probably because driving has been made so "quick and easy" http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... c-transit/ Since cities don't typically charge tolls on streets, and only rarely implement zone charges, re-allocating space to affect people's time budget is the only option they have to increase less destructive and polluting modes.

I'm pretty much on board with the streets.mn authors' proposal.

[go4guy]

Just looked at Google Maps for how long it take to go down 28th from Hennepin to Hiawatha by bike: 15 minutes. By car: 13-14. Or if you go north to the highway for the quickest route it's 11. So if it's really such a big deal for motorists to speed as fast as possible to get from one side to the other then the highway is the only option that significantly cuts down travel time. As far as 28th this simply proves more people should ride a bike: with a minute or two difference it 'll seem just as fast and they won't be travelling at dangerously high speeds that are killing our own neighbors, only to end up going what is basically the same speed as a bike. Convert the streets to two-way with calming measures for 25 MPH traffic to get waves of green signals and it won't be nearly the threat it is today to other users of this residential street and with higher priority given to traffic on this street it'll allow cars to move similar as fast (or slow rather) as they do today. Except, again, without killing and maiming so many people. And let's not forget, a couple blocks south the 21 is a high frequency bus route.

Have never taken that entire legth. But Hennepin to Chicago is a very quick trip. And going to any highway would add a ton of time. It is not even close. When I lived in St Louis Park, it was always faster to take 26th, to Hennepin, to Lake. Taking the freeway would have been an absolute nightmare and would not have been faster. I tried it many times. Same with the trip back in. 26th and 28th are needed as one ways because of the large employers east of 35W that have a lot of people who live west of Uptown, or in the Uptown area.

[David Greene]

26th and 28th are needed as one ways because of the large employers east of 35W that have a lot of people who live west of Uptown, or in the Uptown area.

No, they are not "needed" for those people. Look at the traffic counts. They drop off dramatically west of Nicollet. People are not going from the hospital to Uptown in significant numbers.

I honestly don't know what to do about the hospital campus. There's a good amount of rush-hour traffic there on 26th. I assume 28th is similar. The streets.mn proposal sounds decent but I'd rather hear from the neighbors directly. From what I saw last night, they are concerned about N/S ped and bike connections. At the very least I hope we can drop a lane in that area in each direction. It is just completely bike and ped hostile at the moment.

Is the traffic induced by the 35-W entrances being so inconveniently located? You pretty much have to drive along 26th/28th to reach them from the hospital. Does the Access project only add exits from 35-W to 28th or are new entrances being added as well?

[froggie]

Are the 26th/28th bridges going to get replaced as part of the Lake Street Access project? I assumed all bridges from 42nd to Franklin would get replaced to Crosstown Commons spec.

For the first part, yes. All of the bridges between 31st and Franklin will be replaced as part of the access project. Metro Division's 10-year work plan has it tentatively dated for 2017.

For the second part, as best as I can tell, the bridges between 42nd and 35th are not on any docket.

Does the Access project only add exits from 35-W to 28th or are new entrances being added as well?

The access project envisions two new ramps: a southbound 35W exit ramp to Lake St, and a northbound 35W exit ramp to 28th. A northbound entrance ramp from Lake St was considered, but rejected.


I'm with Alex in that I support Janne's proposal for 26th/28th. I've gone as far as to follow that proposal to come up with several conceptual cross-sections on Streetmix, owing to the differing street widths (especially along 26th), as well as three options for potential 2-way conversion west of Lyndale.

[Mdcastle]

Does the Access project only add exits from 35-W to 28th or are new entrances being added as well?

The access project envisions two new ramps: a southbound 35W exit ramp to Lake St, and a northbound 35W exit ramp to 28th. A northbound entrance ramp from Lake St was considered, but rejected.

"We want people to be able to get off the freeway easy to visit the hospital or local business, but after we have their money we don't care how hard it is for them to get back on"?

[mattaudio]

One of the biggest pain points in the neighborhood is the Franklin entrance to 94 and 35W (5th Avenue South). It's routinely backed up to 26th Street in the afternoons. It slows down the 4 bus as soon as backups are south of 28th. It backs up because the entrance ramp also serves downtown (via Portland and 19th St). The one-way nature of 26th Street compounds this egress problem, because there's no good way to get north other than going east to Park Ave, since going north to 28th is necessary to go west before one can go north on another street such as 1st or 3rd Aves S.

Not to mention the Franklin ramp to 35W northbound is the root cause behind the weave from 94 east to 35W north to 94 east again. If that ramp was gone, there could be a directional ramp from 35W north to the right hand side of 94 east, eliminating the weave.

[mattaudio]

"We want people to be able to get off the freeway easy to visit the hospital or local business, but after we have their money we don't care how hard it is for them to get back on"?

I agree. We should be making it easier for people to get ON the freeway (out of the neighborhood faster) over prioritizing getting OFF the freeway. I think it would work better for everyone - motorists, people in the neighborhood, etc.

I wonder if engineers prefer not to make it easier to get on the freeway because it could create backups, and they'd rather have people backed up and queuing to get on the freeway within the local street grid. Poor man's ramp meters.